Freedom Refill Method for Canon BCI 3, 5, 6 & CLI 8 & PGI 5 and others

[gigigogu]

Today I wanted to refill the BCI-3bk cartridge and obviously I could not use the small orange cap.

So I modified the holder by replacing the cap with a gasket used in a type of water tap stopcock.

Now I can use it for both type of cartridges.

 

[The Hat]

Now this contraption has gotten my attention for sure.
Great gigigogu

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

I'm not convinced that you need large syringes. As I wrote before, I successfully vacuum filled HP564 cartridges with 10mL syringes. (At least I think filling was successful. I haven't used them yet, but I was able to add the correct amount of ink by weight.) EDIT Jan., 2015: 60 mL syringes are not essential, but they sure are convenient.

- it is easy to overfill (ink in space above sponge, up to air maze, happened to cyan cartridge) so I suppose the method cannot be used for opaque cartridges.

It certainly CAN be used for opaque cartridges. The ink in the space above the sponge will drain in seconds, by itself. Look here: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/vacuum-fill-canon-cartridges.php . Click on "Top Drain Video". And to make sure the sponge is not oversaturated, you can either let it drip, or to be safe you can just draw out a little ink with the vent open, perhaps 0.5 mL.

Notice that HP564 cartridges do not have the space above the sponge, so you don't even have to worry about filling that space. EDIT: Although HP564 cartridges don't, I later found out that HP564XL cartridges do.

Both ghwellsjr and I have described how to clean the vent. He doesn't like that I used a drop or two of water, but any dilution would be minimal, and only in the last gasp of ink from the cartridge. Either way, wet or dry, it's easy.

My only concern with this gadget is the small hole that the ink and air have to flow through.

I don't understand the concern. Air and ink flow through needles just fine, and this hole is much larger. EDIT: He's concerned about blowing bubbles and creating foam. Most of the foam comes from the outlet filter of the cartridge.

It's not Luer Lok, correct? Just a smooth round hole? I could not stick my large syringe in it unless I used the blue adapter as shown in the last picture in my first post, correct?

Correct. It's Luer-Slip, as I mentioned before. An ordinary syringe connection. Look it up in Wikipedia. I don't why gigigogu used an external rubber hose instead of the built-in internal connection, but either should work.

 

[pharmacist]

Wait a minute. The Freedom refill method seems to be a good alternative to other refill methods, but the essence is simplicity of refilling...now I cannot see the reduced simplicity and ease of refilling of using this method, actually more complicated compared to the standard top and Durstich refill method.

It introduces much more steps and devices and one must look after that the syringe is welll attached, the sealing on the ink outlet hole, the sealing of the breathing hole and due to the refill method the rubber stopper of the syringe will break down much faster by the repetitive hard pulling of the syringe to create a vacuum in the cartridge: what about the cartridge itself, as the cartridge wall is put under stress (bending inwards putting stress on the sealing on the edges and corners) by the artificial vacuum created by the repetitive sucking by the syringe.

Is it a good alternative, sure, but one one must ask himself: it is more simple compared to the other refill methods ?

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

EDIT Jan., 2015: Two years later, this post seems a little strident. Sorry about that. (Red face). Comments added anyway. To answer the main point, yes it is more time-consuming and messy than most other methods, but it still has some advantages.


Hold on, pharmacist. This is still under development. Let's just wait and see whether people find it useful. We're still discussing all the ways people can mess it up. People are still finding novel ways to mess up with the German method.

It introduces much more steps and devices

It seems pretty simple to me. The German method seems pretty simple too, but it also requires a drill and needles. And people have to hit a small target that they can't see, with a needle. It also requires additional steps for opaque cartridges or nonempty cartridges. And if you don't want to pass the needle under the sponge you ideally need 4" sharp needles, which may be hard to get.

...and one must look after that the syringe is welll attached

An overrated problem, in my opinion, but it's also true of the German method. EDIT: vacuum only. Don't push the plunger.

...the sealing on the ink outlet hole, the sealing of the breathing hole

Wait a minute. So far no one else has tried Ghwellsjr's method. One person tried a similar device that didn't quite work, so he created a Cadillac version. Now some are claiming the Cadillac version is too complicated.

...and due to the refill method the rubber stopper of the syringe will break down much faster by the repetitive hard pulling of the syringe to create a vacuum in the cartridge

Now you're just making stuff up. EDIT: In Jan. 2015, still no sign of any problem.

...what about the cartridge itself, as the cartridge wall is put under stress (bending inwards putting stress on the sealing on the edges and corners) by the artificial vacuum created by the repetitive sucking by the syringe.

Interesting theory, but do you have evidence of a problem? Something to watch out for -- maybe. Or maybe not. EDIT: Still not a problem in 2015. Never had a cartridge leak or break down.

 

[ghwellsjr]

I'm not convinced that you need large syringes.
...

My only concern with this gadget is the small hole that the ink and air have to flow through.

I don't understand the concern. Air and ink flow through needles just fine, and this hole is much larger.

My concern is that as soon as you pull out on the plunger, you get a flood of air bubbles, sometimes like foam, flowing from the cartridge into the syringe and this continues even when you start allowing the plunger to go back in to let the ink flow into the cartridge. With a small orifice, the bubbles and foam can inhibit the ink from flowing into the cartridge which is what you want to have happen. The larger the tubing and orifices, and the shorter the tubing, the easier it is to get the ink into the cartridge instead of foam. For the same reason, a larger orifice on the nozzle of the syringe and being able to get a deeper vacuum with the larger syringe help a lot.

One of my early efforts was to use a four-inch tube from the cartridge to the unbent syringe. I needed the length to get the bend but it wasn't too successful on dye ink cartridges. It worked fairly well on the pigment black ink cartridges, however. I considered many way to get a bend, including using a drip irrigation fitting but eventually I thought of melting a bend into the nozzle of the syringe which seemed the best way to go.

By the way, did you know the Top Drain Video and the article about vacuum filling were written by me?

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

My only concern with this gadget is the small hole that the ink and air have to flow through.

I don't understand the concern. Air and ink flow through needles just fine, and this hole is much larger.

My concern is that as soon as you pull out on the plunger, you get a flood of air bubbles, sometimes like foam, flowing from the cartridge into the syringe and this continues even when you start allowing the plunger to go back in to let the ink flow into the cartridge.

Did you really see foam forming in the syringe? I didn't, and I didn't see any in your video. When it comes to bubbles, I suppose observation trumps theory up to a point, but I still don't see why this is a concern.

You get foam when you draw air through liquid. If you get foam in the syringe, you will be able to see it -- and you're not going to inject that back into the cartridge. And you shouldn't generate foam going into the cartridge, because you're not drawing air through liquid. Your video shows that you're drawing liquid into liquid. I'm sure that if you ever observe foam forming, you will let us know.

Now if you splash a stream of liquid against a surface, you can create a little foam. But you're not splashing against a surface.

If your vacuum is too good, I suppose it's possible that you could be boiling the ink, and that would create foam, although it would collapse instantly. The solution to that is simple: don't do it.

Theoretically, what might happen instead, is that you can get a mixture of air and liquid in the sponge, which might form bubbles and inhibit flow through the sponge. This might be what Gigigogu observed. But your video shows no sign of that. My experiments with sponge-only cartridges don't show that. And if you do get bubbles in the sponge, the vacuum should draw the air out and collapse the foam. And I'm not sure, but I don't think this will happen, with repeated application of even a mediocre vacuum, although I don't have the transparent cartridges to provide visual evidence.

With a small orifice, the bubbles and foam can inhibit the ink from flowing into the cartridge....

No, the large pressure difference will force air, ink, or foam, even through a small needle -- not that you would ever force foam into the cartridge.

So, to repeat my previous assertion, I'm not convinced that you need large syringes for any reason except convenience. And without actually trying it, I'm not convinced that you need large-diameter tubing. Smaller is better because you have lower dead volume.

By the way, did you know the Top Drain Video and the article about vacuum filling were written by me?

Yes. You're the resident expert on vacuum filling. You've written more about this than anyone else I know about. EDIT: there are some others, especially Grandpa.

 

[panos]

if you do get bubbles in the sponge, the vacuum should draw the air out and collapse the foam.

Unfortunately foam can be extremely resilient even to a powerful vacuum. In my own syringe vacuum tests, foam was an insolvable problem. That's why I have faith in the freedom method, it produces less foam.

 

[pharmacist]

Hold on, pharmacist. This is still under development. Let's just wait and see whether people find it useful. We're still discussing all the ways people can mess it up. People are still finding novel ways to mess up with the German method.

It introduces much more steps and devices

It seems pretty simple to me. The German method seems pretty simple too, but it also requires a drill and needles. And people have to hit a small target that they can't see, with a needle. It also requires additional steps for opaque cartridges or nonempty cartridges. And if you don't want to pass the needle under the sponge you ideally need 4" sharp needles, which may be hard to get.

The problem with passing trough the needle underneath the sponge has been very reliable (see defcon2k post about piercing it several hundred times without any ill result), so this won't be the problem

...and one must look after that the syringe is welll attached

An overrated problem, in my opinion, but it's also true of the German method.

Yes, therefore one can use luer locks,as does the squeeze bottle users are using too.

...the sealing on the ink outlet hole, the sealing of the breathing hole

Wait a minute. So far no one else has tried Ghwellsjr's method. One person tried a similar device that didn't quite work, so he created a Cadillac version. Now some are claiming the Cadillac version is too complicated.

In the time to make this construction I have already refilled 10 cartridges and more and finished my sandwich....

...and due to the refill method the rubber stopper of the syringe will break down much faster by the repetitive hard pulling of the syringe to create a vacuum in the cartridge

Now you're just making stuff up.

No I do not: the fast up and down movement really make the rubber stopper of the syringe break down more easily. Even with the normal top and durchstich refill method from time to time the syringe must be discarded due to the movement of the rubber stopper. From what I have seen how much up and down movements have to be done to refill the cartridge, this will certainly deteriorate much faster.

...what about the cartridge itself, as the cartridge wall is put under stress (bending inwards putting stress on the sealing on the edges and corners) by the artificial vacuum created by the repetitive sucking by the syringe.

Interesting theory, but do you have evidence of a problem? Something to watch out for -- maybe. Or maybe not.

Now you tell me: is this method based on the principles of vacuum or not ? If yes, then the cartridge walls will be slightly sucked inwards putting stress on the corners and the edges, if not then my claim is not true. One might avoid vacuum inside the cartridge by not sealing of the breathing hole, but then the refill will not succeed, as there will be no vacuum inside the cartridge to suck up the ink into the compartments.

 

[panos]

Creating vacuum with a syringe indeed stresses the cartridge. When I was testing it, it was a problem for some non-OEM cartridges. I remember a case where the cartridge was stressed and then the sponge would not make full contact with the sponge area allowing ink puddles to form there.

OEM cartridges didn't have problems.