Freedom Refill Method for Canon BCI 3, 5, 6 & CLI 8 & PGI 5 and others

[ThrillaMozilla]

if you do get bubbles in the sponge, the vacuum should draw the air out and collapse the foam.

Unfortunately foam can be extremely resilient even to a powerful vacuum. In my own syringe vacuum tests, foam was an insolvable problem.

If the vacuum is good enough, you will remove the air from the sponge. Without air you can't have foam. That seems to be what gigigogu found. After refilling with his new device the sponge was quite filled with ink. No foam.

That's why I have faith in the freedom method, it produces less foam.

Er, Panos, we're talking about foam that might (or might not) be produced with the Freedom Method. The Freedom Method is a vacuum filling method.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

Now you tell me: is this method based on the principles of vacuum or not ? If yes, then the cartridge walls will be slightly sucked inwards putting stress on the corners and the edges,

Yes, the walls will be briefly sucked in a little, and then they spring back. But is there any evidence that it breaks seams and causes leaks? If it doesn't damage the cartridge, there's no problem. I suppose it's possible, but I'd want to see solid evidence.

In his link,

the sponge would not make full contact with the sponge area

??? The sponge is not in contact with the sponge area? I don't know what that could mean.

OK, I'll take a guess. The sponge is elastic. You're not going to deform the sponge with a little vacuum on the cartridge. If you mean that the sponge is not touching the outlet port, it's possible that the flow of ink pushed the sponge away from the port. Just tap the bottom of the cartridge (but not the outlet port) against a table. This is standard procedure after purging a cartridge.

 

[Tigerman]

why in freedom method inked from buttom hole ???? why we not make hole in above of tank and refill cartidge wd ink ?????what the problem ?? please anyone let me know ??? is this method useful for HP920 cartidge?

 

[gigigogu]

Some observations for points raised in latest posts.

[ThrillaMozilla] I'm not convinced that you need large syringes.

I tried 10 cc, 20 cc and 30 cc syringes.
10 cc syringe is a no go, the working volume is too small. All I accomplished with it was to move ink, air and foam between sponge and syringe, with very little ink going to spongeless side.
20 cc syringe is usable, but needs more cycles, also need breaks to remove air and draw ink.
With 30 cc syringe I was able to fill in fewer cycles, without any break.

[pharmacist] It introduces much more steps and devices and one must look after that the syringe is welll attached, the sealing on the ink outlet hole, the sealing of the breathing hole

I agree and I may add that is lengthy and sometime messy until you learn how to do it properly. But if the goal is to refill a cartridge without any modification this is the only way, beside industrial vacuum machines. It can be the best choice for a small refill business.

[pharmacist] the rubber stopper of the syringe will break down much faster

Well, the rubber in my 30 cc syringe already shows a degradation, but is a syringe from a refill kit and not for medical use. I think a good syringe for medical use will last at least its validity period.
Some 60 cc syringes I found on-line are specially designed for aspiration.

[ThrillaMozilla] so he created a Cadillac version

I suppose it is about me.
Please do not judge Freedom Method from my contraption and results. I think ghwellsjr hose adapter is better and faster in use. My contraption has a big disadvantage, it does not allow unsealing the air maze before unsealing the outlet port, meaning that if there is still negative pressure in cartridge some air will be drawn through outlet port in lower sponge, also cleaning the air maze requires additional steps.

[ThrillaMozilla] I don't understand the concern. Air and ink flow through needles just fine, and this hole is much larger.

Forcing air and ink through a small hole would generate a lot of foam.
I did an experiment, I fitted a thin needle on syringe and drew first some ink, then air. There was a lot of foam in syringe. I repeated without needle, and there was no foam.

[ThrillaMozilla] If your vacuum is too good, I suppose it's possible that you could be boiling the ink, and that would create foam

Yes, it boils. I did an experiment for this, too. With some ink in a sealed syringe I pulled the plunger and some bubbles appeared.

[ThrillaMozilla] although it would collapse instantly

Not completely. At boiling the vapors take some heat from surroundings so the vapor / liquid equilibrium is changed.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

I tried 10 cc, 20 cc and 30 cc syringes.
10 cc syringe is a no go, the working volume is too small. All I accomplished with it was to move ink, air and foam between sponge and syringe, with very little ink going to spongeless side.
20 cc syringe is usable, but needs more cycles, also need breaks to remove air and draw ink.
With 30 cc syringe I was able to fill in fewer cycles, without any break.

Interesting. Well, whatever it takes. I think the sponge must be forming the foam during the vacuum stroke. I don't know why, maybe it's something about your ink. But in any case, don't ever inject foam into the cartridge. If you can't inject liquid ink without foam or air, then you need to change something. That's simple enough, don't you think?

I did an experiment, I fitted a thin needle on syringe and drew first some ink, then air. There was a lot of foam in syringe. I repeated without needle, and there was no foam.

But did I not tell you that's what would happen? Now inject liquid (no foam or air!) through the needle into liquid. Presto! No foam. And you're not using a needle.

And you just proved one other thing. Without the needle, no foam. The syringe by itself doesn't cause a problem, so as long as your tubing is at least as large as the syringe opening (and it is), it won't cause a problem. Besides, air rises and ink sinks. Hold the syringe so air doesn't bubble through the ink.

[ThrillaMozilla] If your vacuum is too good, I suppose it's possible that you could be boiling the ink, and that would create foam

Yes, it boils. I did an experiment for this, too. With some ink in a sealed syringe I pulled the plunger and some bubbles appeared.

[ThrillaMozilla] although it would collapse instantly

Not completely. At boiling the vapors take some heat from surroundings so the vapor / liquid equilibrium is changed.

I'm sorry I mentioned boiling. You might have boiled it a little bit, but it's probably not so easy. Feel the syringe. Is it hot? I didn't think so. Whatever bubbles remain when you release the vacuum are mostly air. You won't get foam by boiling.

 

[panos]

Without air you can't have foam. That seems to be what gigigogu found. After refilling with his new device the sponge was quite filled with ink. No foam.

Is that so ? There seems to be quite a bit of foam in his magenta cartridge.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

Without air you can't have foam. That seems to be what gigigogu found. After refilling with his new device the sponge was quite filled with ink. No foam.

Is that so ? There seems to be quite a bit of foam in his magenta cartridge.

EDIT: Yes, it's so. Read on.

Well, yes, foam is made of air, so without air, you can't have foam. But now that you mention it, hmm, he does his cartridges do appear to have more ink in the top than the bottom of the sponge. Cyan too. It's as if the cartridges were filled upside down or something. But if you look at ghwellsjr's video, you can see the ink going in as it's supposed to. There's no question about it.

In gigigogu's case, without seeing a video, I can only guess what's going wrong. He mentioned foam in the syringe. Surely he's not blowing air (foam) into the cartridge? Or filling upside down??? Gigigogu?

EDIT: In the next message, Gigigogu provides a simple explanation. It turns out, it's not a problem. He's a believer.

 

[gigigogu]

Except my very first try I never injected air or foam, well, no more that it was trapped in dead space between syringe and outlet port.

And as I said in a previous post, the ink had a tendency to go straight in upper sponge.

I kept the position of cartridge exactly as in ghwellsjr video, even more, at last cartridge I filled I was able to hold the cartridge with outlet port almost facing down, during release stage.

Maybe it is because I got a perfect seal on air maze and first I unsealed the outlet pot (my contraption disadvantage) so the residual negative pressure above sponge draws ink up.

However, after letting the filled cartridge over night, the ink balanced between sponges and after few prints the cartridge looked as it looks after other refill methods, with upper sponge in a light color and lower sponge saturated.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

Maybe it is because I got a perfect seal on air maze and first I unsealed the outlet pot (my contraption disadvantage) so the residual negative pressure above sponge draws ink up.

Ah, yes, thank you, that explains it. I guess you can't easily open the vent before the outlet port, but if you could, that would surely take care of it.

However, after letting the filled cartridge over night, the ink balanced between sponges and after few prints the cartridge looked as it looks after other refill methods, with upper sponge in a light color and lower sponge saturated.

Beautiful! I think we can dispense with "foam" problems. Sounds like a happy ending. And simple too!

 

[gigigogu]

Although I do not have any printer with opaque cartridges, I was very curious to see how Freedom Method works on opaque cartridge.

So I covered a BCI cartridge with black electrical tape, applied Freedom Method and after injecting about 10 ml of ink I applied ghwellsjr steps to clean the air maze and eliminate surplus ink.

And it works!