What color space does the 3880 really cover?

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm using i1Profiler/Publish to create profiles , with an i1io table for a quicker scan, I recently migrated from Profile Maker.
OBA's won't impact the gamut volume really, they impact the white point and whatever is linked to it like the gray axis, but any significant amount of ink in the saturated areas will cover up the OBA impact. And even more, those brighteners fade away pretty quickly. I did some quick tests here
https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/optical-brighteners-and-their-fading.11650/#post-98254
The CR674A HP glossy paper does not contain any of those, o.k. - you don't like glossy papers....
Yes, I do some mixing, I just order CMYK inks, dilute LM and LC from M and C, and mix red and blue for the R800. Not using real pigments for red and blue, but just a mix to keep the printer running should reduce the gamut somewhat in those regions and not enhance it. I'm not inclined to pay the same price for regular inks and light inks just with a higher contents of solvents but less pigments. And inventory keeping is simpler with less ink colors. (although I have to admit that I have a few more inks - dye and this and that type...and leftovers from tests ....)
That's the status on my side, it might be interesting to understand why you apparently get smaller gamuts with your 3880, is it the inks , the printer/driver, the papers - I don't have an idea.
You might compare your profiles with those measured by precisioncolors for the 3880 and their inks and papers
http://precisioncolors.com/E9B3_ICCs.html
You are probably not using those papers but similar paper types should show some similarities in their profiles

 

[berserk]

It was OP, the thread-starter W. Fisher
that pointed to this issue - he used a glossy paper that he calibrated - that showed us a similar profile.

it might be interesting to understand why you apparently get smaller gamuts with your 3880, is it the inks , the printer/driver, the papers - I don't have an idea.

I use I1pro2/I1profiler 1.6.7. Did a dual scan M0,M1,M2 and OBC - all out of interest around 1500 patches.
No big differences that should be discussed here.

OP and I have more in common than You and me, but to be noted is, that OP used a glossy paper and I a satin.
In a wider perspective we got the "same sort" and simular issue studying the profiles in a gamut-viewer in Lab space.

So the conclusion could be that OP and I are doing the same errors . However OP also pointed to other links showing the issue. (recommend You read them as well)

I mainly use Printfab Studio "RIP" because I feel I get better results there and have more control making ink flow volumes test before printing the test charts etc - you also are able to fine tune using Prinfab's all ink settings individually in the printer-driver, for me an interesting experience. And hey it's German quality.

I'll go further into this 3880 issue. I can not blame Epson as they never told us anything really about the 3880's color space capability.

As others I did read the applauding reviews out there about the 3880 - and thought it to be good compared to many other printers - some also used the word "a barging"......now I can read that EP. Surecolor P800 is not really a big step up.

Perhaps it's not an issue - it just an Epson 3880! That's it!!!

I have a hope in better inks - however buying, emptying and flushing filling testing over and over again - that is for sure not my side of reality. Studying canned profiles from third party ink sellers might be a way.

http://precisioncolors.com
do they have resellers in the Europe? Their inks for 3880 seems interesting.
Good reputation etc?

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I don't really like Printfab I must admit, I was running my Pro7600 with a RIP for a while but I'm happy enough at this time with the standard driver, Qimage and decent profiles, same for other printers.
Precisioncolors is shipping to Europe, you can order there directly , they have a separate 'shop' for int'l customers w/o taxes . Mike of precisioncolors is participating here as 'mikling'. They ship directly from Canada, I got served very well. But as with all int'l shipments - China, Canada, US you need to assess the shipping cost and whether it's worth for you.
You are right, testing inks in a 3880 would be a time and ink consuming affair, I'm doing that on a cheapy WF-2010W with refill cartridges - just 4 colors, that's a quick and easy thing. As long as I keep the parameters fixed on that printer - driver settings - same type of papers etc inks can be compared easily that way , I'm using the matte paper driver setting which prints all inks incl. black, the glossy paper setting would exclude the black ink. That WF2010W is the test bed for all my initial ink tests. An ink might give another gamut on another printer ultimately, but as long as I keep the testing setup equal a poor ink on the WF2020W won't get any better on another printer, and any order of test results for several inks - from best to poor - would remain the same on another printer.
It is difficult to find any good information about the various inksets by Epson, HD, HDX, XD of the newer printer models beyond the marketing blabla, one can just find some pieces here or there, about the improved black level, about the better fading stability of the yellow pigments but not a comparitive overall assessment.
The P800 probably won't give you what you are looking for, the P5000 is probably the best what Epson currently can offer in terms of ink performance, I don't have any good idea whether and how comparable Canon printers would compare.

 

[berserk]

Let's drop it there! Thanks everyone!

This must mature in my brain before taking actions for the future.

 

[Roy Sletcher]

As a final comment and In keeping with my earlier statement that the Epson Pro-3880 could exceed the adobeRGB1988 colour space gamut in certain areas.

Below is a simple gamut map illustrating this. The coloured area is from an Epson 3880 printing on to Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, with OEM ink with a good well made profile. The wire area is the aRGB1988 colour space. This paper with the OEM Ultrachrome K3 inkset gives just about the biggest gamut you can get from this printer.

You can clearly see that in the reds, yellows and some blue areas the aRGB gamut is exceeded. Not so much in other areas, and very dependent on paper and progfile

The profile was made by:
http://www.colourphil.co.uk

By the way in my opinion we pay too much attention to the theoretical issues of colour space, gamut, etc. The proof is the visual effect of the final print. and Generally creativity, artistry and skillful technique trumps theoretical technical numbers every time.

Simply put - "Those that can - DO. Those that can't - TALK ABOUT NUMBERS".

Peace.

rs

 

[berserk]

I thought I should drop this thread letting my brain working in behind later giving me hints and ways
to explain what I, OP and other have noticed. It might be as simple as there are good and bad batches of the 3880 - a missed setting in operating system or in used software, firmware, simple usage misses as- not now and then shaking the ink-carts letting pigment being uniformly distributed in the solvent, Seldom use of the printer only using inks that are in the tubes - that by diffusion evaporates (a thing that was noticed in older CISS-systems) in the plastic lines etc etc etc.

By the way in my opinion we pay too much attention to the theoretical issues of colour space, gamut, etc. The proof is the visual effect of the final print. and Generally creativity, artistry and skillful technique trumps theoretical technical numbers every time.

Simply put - "Those that can - DO. Those that can't - TALK ABOUT NUMBERS".

As an serious engineer I protest!

This place has the name "Printerknowledge" that is, it's much about as You say "theoretical technical numbers". In my profession we call that engineering. All photo softs and hardware you own are designed by engineers - all standards are set by engineers. By hard learning from Printer-gurus, often on the net, we pedagogically learn the use to manage those gears, softs in a way that was intended by the engineers.

To be an artist You first must learn and master the process and it's know how - then after that doing the "things" making You an the artist.

OK -You can use an iPhone taking wonderful occasionally pics. Later enjoy them on a normal 50% sRGB monitor go and get it printed in town. Making the photographer even more happy and proud.

However - I do not believe that those happy and wonderful people are visiting "Printerknowledge".

Let's say we are serious enough to take the photographing and printing a bit
more seriously.

Understanding and using the "tools" and the "numbers" should make You good print maker.
Very few will be real ARTISTS - and real ARTISTS know what they are doing with their talent - often breaking the rules.

A photo on a print can be presented in 10 000 ways. All being "nice" and expressive.
To start with I first want a calibrated base and be able to know the capability of my gear.

BTW - I also use my phones camera now and then not having access to my real gear- snapping around. And hey - made some "nice" prints on the 3880. Not bad - but note I wrote "nice".

Still - I'll let the 3880 issue wait and mature. Then methodically go through testing "solutions" by the numbers the engineering way! I have only so far studied Epsons own profiles and others - there "must be something".

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

O.k.. - the thread is closed, here just a small postscriptum how well an old Canon 9000 can reach /exceed Adobe RGB
https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/so-why-dont-we-just-dial-in-srgb.10055/page-3#post-83584

 

[Roy Sletcher]

to explain what I, OP and other have noticed. It might be as simple as there are good and bad batches of the 3880 - a missed setting in operating system or in used software, firmware, simple usage misses as- not now and then shaking the ink-carts letting pigment being uniformly distributed in the solvent, Seldom use of the printer only using inks that are in the tubes - that by diffusion evaporates (a thing that was noticed in older CISS-systems) in the plastic lines etc etc etc.

As an Engineer and a man of facts and figures you know this, how?

This place has the name "Printerknowledge" that is, it's much about as You say "theoretical technical numbers". In my profession we call that engineering. All photo softs and hardware you own are designed by engineers - all standards are set by engineers. By hard learning from Printer-gurus, often on the net, we pedagogically learn the use to manage those gears, softs in a way that was intended by the engineers.

Agreed, but once the picture emerges as colourant on a substrate it is judged by the world of visual art. Not numbers or engineering standards. We have yet to see any visual artist, photographer, or art dealer describe their products in engineering terms.

I describe myself a a technocrat, being a disciple of evidence based evaluation. I am told that any competent engineer can explain why a bumble-bee cannot fly. something to do with a complex formulae about weight to wing lift capacity.

I wish you well, and am sure you will get a lot of enjoyment from your 3880. I love mine and it is now my goto printer of choice.

rs

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

pps

We have yet to see any visual artist, photographer, or art dealer describe their products in engineering terms.

Please let me give it a try - this was a recent POW entry


which would look in Lab color space like this - compared to sRGB


I think this subject overall would be good for a separate thread - how much creativity is there in a engineering process - does an 'artist' always know what he is doing ?.... and many more questions

 

[The Hat]

Perhaps it's not an issue - it just an Epson 3880! That's it!!!

Now we’re getting closer to the truth, because it’s not the 3880... !

This place has the name "Printerknowledge" that is, it's much about as You say "theoretical technical numbers".

You couldn’t be more wrong...

Let's drop it there! Thanks everyone!

At last your right about something..
It is time to close the thread, because you won’t listen to the good advice that’s given...