What color space does the 3880 really cover?

[W. Fisher]

Thanks Roy for the video link.

I watched it and to my surprise the Epson Glossy proifle I made pretty much follows the one you captured from the video with regards to the hue and saturation.

Problem is that it is in 2D (Yxy) and loses the L* values for the lightness and darkness of the color. Putting the same profile into 3D L*ab and showing that lightness/darkness of that Epson profile shows that it really doesn't cover that much of the sRGB gamut space in L*ab, and perhaps only 75%-80% or so. I know my blacks are no where near the sRGB black nor the sRGB whites either in the 3D of the same paper profile shown below against the 2D one on the left like the video shows.

Would be interesting if the printer makers would publish some sort of basic color space numbers to go along with maybe their glossy and matte papers so we could evaluate them. Prints 85% sRGB or something similar like they do with monitors - although they likely would fib those numbers in some fancy marketing and ad speak: i.e. "Capable of 100% Adobe 1998 RGB" .... "in the year 2025 or in the Yxy 2D space" in much smaller print.

Oh well, sort of interesting. But that PS Soft-Proofing wiping out that sRGB gamut as much as it did is something I didn't expect to see and I thought it was linked to the print's ICC profile, but maybe not. Some abitrary color space that the Soft-Proof must compare against somehow. Holdover from CMYK printers maybe. I don't know.

W.F.

 

[Roy Sletcher]

In my experience the inherent variables in CM theory and even more variables in the practical applications of colour reproduction make it almost impossible to keep the discussion simple and comprehensible. Eventually colour, being in the discipline of physics, results in complex (for me) mathematical formulae.

I think for an amateur whose income does not depend on consistently delivering precise or accurate colour results we should consider THE HAT'S solution as a good model. Basically don't other-think the process. If it looks OK it probably is OK.

In my case I have a simple workflow that works for me most of the time. In practical terms I can adjust and predict the colours I will print, and identify problem areas likely to cause trouble. Occasionally the "Magic fails" and the output is "Cr@p that I cannot explain. At that point I just do the best I can to work through the theory to find the point of failure, and then adjust.

Not very scientific but works for me on a practical basis.

rs

PS: Incidentally, my earlier post quoted Andrew Rodney over others I preferred because he is still pretty active in the Colour Management forums, and can be easily contacted should you wish to disagree with him, or discuss his arguments in greater detail. Thus relieving me from the awesome burden of defending his points.

 

[berserk]

OK! Checked in Gammutvision and in Colorthink Pro that my Sihl "Satin" Lustre in by far is by far over-triumphed by sRGB. Profiles with i1Pro 2 was - chocking and then to control my I1pro2 other profiles with my Colormunki Photo. Both profiles contain, resemble and looks rather equal in shape and gamut. Also shown above in this thread.
Both in Argyll and in I1Profiler. Cone Color CCRPRO (K4?)/3880

Old thread this - however nothing here about rendering intents here can make the catastrophe better..

After hard digging in the formulas deep down in that knowledge bases about those primary rendering methods (perceptual and relative) - I give up. Although I have a M.Sc. and practically and theoretical worked as such.

I have one wide gamut monitor that exceeds Adobe RGB and one that is almost exact sRGB.
Both good - but "different".

Now let me put it simple - what color-space is best to work in? Prophoto/Adobe RGB colorspace and then print it out with my preferred indent - or just cut of my nose, toes and ears and throw out the expensive wide gamut monitor and go sRGB all the way including setting my cameras to sRGB. (Writing that - hurts!!!)

That is - does a WG Wide Gamut work-management, making better "results" - letting the perceptual/relative conversation have more color-data to convert into the 3880s profile /rendering? With results i mean we are working with costly but limited outfits/material
behind a fens with all the other colors outside. And Adobe RGB red is not the same at all as sRGB-red (255,0,0).

OK - let's say that this is a general question - lets say we pretend that the market only had that paper, that printer and that inks - and of cause a serious profiles for the monitors, printer and working with color managed softs and last but not least a serious color managed workflow.

(Prints with Prinfab Studio and have stopped using the Epson drivers - The first gives me more satisfaction and results - but this is irrelevant here)

I have tested the different methods - and results are subjectively not the same - however still uncertain - normally I find results from WG-works makes me happier and more pleased.

However that contradicts my feeling that moving more colors out of the printers color-space should make things worse. But but but.... on the other side those rendering intents might like as much color-data as possible. That is my wondering!!!!

Hey - I know what some here would say direct - no names here - however I think this thread is an excellent place to elaborate that.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm not sure to understand your questions completely - are you contemplating about the wide gamut monitor or the Conecolor inks or limitations in the printout of your 3880 or by the paper used ? Are you processing images from beginning to the end - you take photos - use RAW data - use one or the other color space for processing and print them - or are you editing images for print and publication ? Did you run some tests to compare the print output by working with different colors spaces ? Did you ask some other people to compare such printouts - without knowing what the differences might be ?

 

[berserk]

I'm not contemplating about my gear at all. Just that we live in a color restricted surrounding.
I use the WG-Monitor strictly for printing.

I did say, for simplicity - lets say we pretend that the market only had that paper, that printer and that inks - and of cause a serious profiles for the monitors, printer and working with color managed softs and last but not least a serious color managed workflow. There we are - that's it.

Now - I have that printer profile only for that very paper. Crippled within sRGB space.
I do one print in Adobe RGB environment and sent it to the printer with the WG-monitor and Printfab.
Now I do another print edited in pure sRGB-environmen and on the sRGB-monitor only and send it to printfab.

Now - my question - as we know the limit of the printer profile and space. Less than sRGB!
Does the intent (perceptual or relative) give us a better rendered photo, a worse rendered photo or a almost equal photo.

Hypothetical point one: The indent function has more colors to work-with in the WG-workflow and thereby mess up things up by pressing and moving out of gammut colors into the bad color space/profile of the printer.

Hypothetical point two: Indent function in WG-environment loves all color it can get from the working-space "helping" the bad colorspace/profile of the printer "act-better".

Hypothetical point three: sRGB only from camera, a sRGB-monitor and that crippled 3880 paper/ink/profile only. Why bother.

I'm now talking of photo in a way to try to resemle the objekt/scene as far as possible.
Not at all "photo art" that sells good because the buyer thinks "those flowers looks just gorgeous - what an artist that photographer is."

For me the above question is technical and does not at all have to do with selling good-looking "artistic" pics that are VERY nice but do not resemble the real scene.

Got it?

(OK I know all the medicine but the question is raised - what can we do with the equipment/material mentioned above to squeeze out more of that ink/paper. Does color intent help if so how and is WG helping.)

 

[Roy Sletcher]

esee

Now let me put it simple - what color-space is best to work in? Prophoto/Adobe RGB colorspace and then print it out with my preferred indent - or just cut of my nose, toes and ears and throw out the expensive wide gamut monitor and go sRGB all the way including setting my cameras to sRGB. (Writing that - hurts!!!)

I will resist my normal impulse to weigh in with a 10,000-word response. I can hear The Hat's sigh of relief from 6,000 Km away.

You have presented a range of somewhat imprecise questions that would require more space than available here to answer and in most cases, the answer would be, "It depends". This is not a criticism as there is nothing wrong with what you have posted, but in many cases, the answer would depend on whether you were looking at the pictures from the Hubble space telescope on your iPad, or monitor of the scientist at NASA downloading them.

To attempt an answer your question highlighted at the top of this post, I recommend the video linked below. The video is from a prominent consultant in the field of colour printing and colour reproduction. As a man of science I am hoping you will find his factual evidence based approach helpful. Beware, there are lots of false prophets in the colour management field, and especially in the photography forums and Youtube videos. If you find his approach helpful you will be able to find many other links to excellent videos by him.

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q
rs

 

[berserk]

He He ... no one dares!!!

Best answer yet is "it depends" by our friend Roy Sletcher

OK - to gear up - does color intent when printing suffer from a WG (perceptual or/and relative).

 

[berserk]

OK!

SPACE is too BIG - and we are to tiny!

/Gutta

 

[Roy Sletcher]

He He ... no one dares!!!

Best answer yet is "it depends" by our friend Roy Sletcher

OK - to gear up - does color intent when printing suffer from a WG (perceptual or/and relative).

Probably better than, "It's complicated".

Don't want to set myself up as an expert. I am far from one. Just that I was using PS in the Mid 90's when Adobe introduced Colour Mangement and caused brains to explode over the entire user base. Was an event to behold. Since then I have more or less learned to get by using those tools - they really work OR can really screw you-up depending on your perspective!

rs

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Did you do actual print tests with your hypotheses, and are they as you expect them to be - in terms of color rendition ? Here is a simple test image, assigned with another wide gamut color space, o.k. - the explanation is in German, the whole point is that the image, the blue background has some vertical bars which are beyond sRGB, so you won't see that on a regular monitor, or only if you would reduce the color saturation to pull them into sRGB, you can use that image to check your monitor, your printer/profile and whether your software is capable to handle a wide gamut color space.
I think we are talking here mainly about colors, color space etc, but there is another point

I'm now talking of photo in a way to try to resemle the objekt/scene as far as possible.

That's by far not possible, just look to the brightness range - even a 3x8bit image can deliver a range of 8 f-stops, but you can be lucky if you get a brightness range of 4 f-stops in printouts - just look to the lightness values L=100 or less for the paper white point . L= 50 1 f-stop - L=25 another one - L=12 the third one and L=6 (the 4th f-stop) is a typical black level of good inks on good papers.