What color space does the 3880 really cover?

[berserk]

As an Engineer and a man of facts and figures you know this, how?

Roy, I wrote "It might be..." I have not investigated the possible flaws yet.
I'll deal with it later as an engineer. I have straggled with inkjet printing since 2001 when I bought two Epson 1290s. One for BW a la Paul Roark the other for color printing.

It is time to close the thread, because you won’t listen to the good advice that’s given...

I stand corrected and I never argue with a Moderator... however please can You help me point out what I missed in this thread to solve the issue that OP and I experience. I missed it - and it would save vulnerable time. (My question is honest and humble.)


Now I promise You all to go back to my cave and paint a prehistoric ox with nature-made pigments on its wall. It will beat any tests conducted at the Image Permanence Institute of the Rochester Institute of Technology

 

[The Hat]

I'll deal with it later as an engineer.

That’s your problem as I see it, I reckon your over thinking inkjet printing, it’s got nothing to do with engineering, you can pet a statue of a dog and a living dog won’t pet you back either...

 

[berserk]

So this thread now is about "my problems" solving things as an engineer.
Have You ever heard that those things are humans and as such also can do this and that?

You - The Moderator - please...

I ones also was a soldier for years - does that also hinder me making prints "the right way".

Is there a word in English/US like "inkjet-snobs"? OK - it just fell into my mind....

BTW - what was the issue to be solved/explained - OP asked and I confirmed his conclusions?
Could we keep it there? Trains follow rails!

 

[Roy Sletcher]

Craving The Hats indulgence for one final comment. Pretty please!

Is there a word in English/US like "inkjet-snobs"? OK - it just fell into my mind....

Yes the word is "giclée", and for the truly pretentious inkjet printmaker it is important NOT to miss the accent on the first e.

Short definition:
Giclée (/ʒiːˈkleɪ/ zhee-KLAY or /dʒiːˈkleɪ/) is a neologism coined in 1991 by printmaker Jack Duganne for fine art digital prints made on inkjet printers. The name originally applied to fine art prints created on Iris printers in a process invented in the late 1980s but has since come to mean any inkjet print.

I hate pretense with a passion and the inflated term giclée is loaded with pretentious innuendo.

Sorry about that Mr The Hat. My final comment.

rs

 

[The Hat]

OK guys, Please Don’t shoot the messenger, it’s got nothing to do with “giclée", or “snobbery", more like common sense, when you stand back from a problem you usually can see it more clearly...

P.S. I don’t do colour photography, it’s not my interest or forte, and I post here as a fellow member and not as a Moderator...

 

[berserk]

Alright - I did not gave up. I think mine and OP:s problem are at least partly solved. The solution to the problem is in any manual from Epson and from third party ink supplier.
The key word is "agitate the carts every two weeks" (In Epson themselves manual. Pigment inks are particles floating in an "ink carrier". Pigment maybe heavier (sinks) lighter (floats) than the density of the pigment ink carrier. That is over time inks are not uniformly distributed in the ink carrier.
To look at that issue in the engineering manner I did the following tests:

After thinking my hypothesis was "it's important to agitate the pigment inks" - So let me test if it's that important.

To make the test - with inks only I chose a package of the well known quality paper that anyone can buy and have a rather good reputation.
Also with that paper You can download different pre-made icc profiles by almost any ink-supplier inklusive Epson.

Paper used "Epson Premium Glossy Photopaper" only.
Printer Ep. 3880.

Ink 1: Cone Color Pro
Ink 2: Epson's own original.

Cart type 1: Cone original "Chinese" carts
Cart type 2: Epson original.

Progs: Chromix Profile prism (latest ver.), X-rite I1profiler 1.6.7, Test charts 1095 patches - scrambled measured M1D50 after one day drying. ICC-Profiles from Epson and Cone.


Sitting in the printer was cone carts with cone inks last refilled in November. Unagitated. So there I started.

As OP and I pointed out - the profiles made was not not satisfactory.

Then to the next step - agitating the Cone carts. At once I noticed TWO issues.
1/ The cart was filled with severe ink foam over the ink-levels.
2/ Carts is containing several chambers and channels that made it impossible to fully mix all inks by agitating. Inks closed/sitting in those channels and chambers.

However I agitated the carts and let them settle over night - up-side-down. (half filled) Then put them in the printer - purged the lines and cleaned the caping-station for non contamination.

Printed the I1profiler-charts and measured them the day after.

Next test: Epson inks. Agitated my reference - Epson original inks in their carts.
No problem at all - no air in the bladders at all in those carts and ALL ink in one container (the bladder that is) - makes agitation fully functional.
Put them in the 3880 - made some deep purges and cleaned the caping-station.

Printed the test-charts. And the same procedure as last time.
Measured them.

This takes time - drying and all.
I have other tests in mind - I'll will when time permits - empty a set of half used Epson-carts and crack them the way Jose Rodriguez, that is our friend @jtoolman, does and fill them with Cone-inks. And then go through the procedure above.

OK to the results so far. Profile Prism used.

As said before in this thread - the old test is no more to discussed here. It was not "up there" at all.

- Agitated Cone-inks in Cone carts just "better" but not at all up to Cones own profile for that paper on The Cone site.

Agitated Epson original inks - far better and somewhat "looks like" Epson Icc-profile from Epson themselves.

So far I have decided to throw away the "Chinese" carts! Re-glue the chips back to a half used Epson original empty them and fill them with Cone inks the @jtoolmas way.

To be noted:
This might not be a problem at all for those printing let's say a "Chinese" refill cart/month or those that have for habit to shake those carts for lets say every two weeks or any other trick I do not know! However - I will not put just agitated/full of foam carts in my printer - and You can not mix inks with that in other chambers channels.

Using original Epson carts - no problems at all - no ink foam when agitating and all ink in the cart is really mixed. No air in that bladder also might protect the inks themselves from ageing by not being exposed to air/oxygen.

In a way this might be a problem for the way I'm using the printer. I only use the 3880 now and then for longer periods but takes "care of it" - BUT prints extensively when it's "printing time" after some months of photographing - then I can empty some of the carts. So in the future - when those times comes - I'll shake the (now on) EPSON carts and do some deep-clean to clear the line from old separated inks.

As @TheHat said - "it was me!" Nothing wrong with printer!

However - those "Chinese" refilling carts are - let's at least call them suspicious and for agitating and mixing inks in, beaten by far by Epson original ink carts with just one bladder.

Another thing doing this study I compared Epson orginal ICC-profile to that of Cone. Conclusion - Epsons ICC-profile had a greater color space - but not that far.

Also compared other third party ink icc-profiles comparing them to Epson original.
Let me conclude - Epson make good inks!!!

Later on I'll see how Cone inks in Epson carts will perform - "shaken not stirred"!(007).

Rubber gloves on - attack and let free my Epson original carts!
@jtoolman knew this from the beginning!

/berserk

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

so - how much closer to AdobeRGB are you getting now ?
I would recommend to be reluctant about the quality of Epson profiles coming with a printer.
Epson America offered a set of 'premium' profiles for several printers since they admitted that the
standard profiles are not optimal
"The following ICC profiles are provided by Epson America, Inc. free of charge. They have been produced by Epson America's color management team for Epson Stylus Photo R2880 customers. In most cases, these premium ICC profiles will provide more accurate color and black-and-white print quality than with the standard profiles already shipping with every printer."
Copied from https://epson.com/Support/wa00376
I don't know whether they have as well a separate set for the 3880, or you just redo them with Epson ink on Epson paper

 

[The Hat]

Congratulations @berserk, I really do hope you have solved your own colour problems...

 

[berserk]

so - how much closer to AdobeRGB are you getting now ?
I would recommend to be reluctant about the quality of Epson profiles coming with a printer.
Epson America offered a set of 'premium' profiles for several printers since they admitted that the
standard profiles are not optimal
"The following ICC profiles are provided by Epson America, Inc. free of charge. They have been produced by Epson America's color management team for Epson Stylus Photo R2880 customers. In most cases, these premium ICC profiles will provide more accurate color and black-and-white print quality than with the standard profiles already shipping with every printer."
Copied from https://epson.com/Support/wa00376
I don't know whether they have as well a separate set for the 3880, or you just redo them with Epson ink on Epson paper

AdobeRGB....Not quite as @RoySletcher showed with his precented profile here in this very thread.
I want a direct link to where it was published - what paper/ink etc.
After extensive search I can not find that page. Please Roy, point me to the whole link. Paper/inks/profiling etc so I can contact the author.

Normally I do not use that "excellent" paper used here for tests - however it gives a great gamut response - and gloss and reflectance till death. I do not hang glossies on the wall among other arts. Now I'll test with that paper because of it's gamut and quality AND availability for everyone. Perhaps we should use that paper all of us to dismiss that talk - "Hallo...You man - it depends of the paper used - not only the inks and - I do not accept your conclusion!" (My suggestion for test profiling here as that paper can be gotten anywhere on the globe.)

Congratulations @berserk, I really do hope you have solved your own colour problems...

Alright - thanks - I think I the train follows the rails here. Perhaps the most important. However I'll see later if the train hits the right station.

Anyhow - so far Epson has showed me that their hardware(carts) and inks are better all the time. Better than third party.
Not to mention "Chinese" multi chamber/channels carts - impossible to mix the inks in for me. We are all different behind our printers!

My PRINTER has not yet hit the market!!!
Yours seems to have....

Mine cripple the output of my cameras!