What color space does the 3880 really cover?

[berserk]

In answer to
Roy Sletcher


Earlier in this thread I wrote:

"That's why I'm happy reading this thread - it made me understand my shortcomings and why my outfit is not up to it."




Let talk fact instead:
That is as You wrote "VERY VERY CLEAR"

1/ I have a top notch 24x36 digitalcamera with very good lenses their flagship - there I'm satisfyed. $$$$'s
2/ I have a top notch WG-monitor - there I'm more than satisfyed $$$$'s
3/ I have enough know-how about color-managemen to dare to talk to people and humbly with the gurus -knowing more.
3/ OK I just have an I1pro2 and a I1pro Display - there are betters.
4/ My working environment are according to what the gurus recommend.
5/ I'm picky and stubborn
6/ I just have a Epson 3880 with Cone pro colors - there are better gears out there but they hardly fit in my home.
7/ My computer "has it". I promise You.
8/ My softs are highly regarded and I can tell that I have spent several years using and exploring them. Let's say they are in a way de facto standard for color-work.
9/ Tried and studied settings and fine polishing my work flow. Very intense!

Am I dumb? OK here I talk in subjectively in my own person and I'm no "shrink".
I do not believe so - Civil engineer M.Sc. and in my job all the time worked with math, physiks and chemestry being a structural designer. All having its precise knowledge and workflows. ---But have as some - short comings here and there. After all I'm regarded as a human person.

My photographing interest started in the mid fifties. Our family owned WBG-film making education films for the army but also documentaries for TV. From beginning of the sixties I have had an wet darkroom - color and BW. Members of many photo-clubs. (Pity I throw out the wet....)

But why are me and others here in the thread getting a crimped profile within the sRGB-colorspace.
Same printers - different inks and paper. I would expect at least reach sRGB.

You also wrote:
"For the record the Pro 3880 can, under correct conditions exceed AdobeRGB1988 colour space."

Tried to verify that by googling - found some bigger spaces but that was I think due to the paper chosen - but not at all "exceeded AdobeRGB 1988".

I'm eager - please help me find those places so I can verify how they did it and with what/how they precented it and measured it.

I do not at all want to challenge You or being rude - I like resistance and appreciate your interest, patience and knowledge.



/Gutta

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

You are looking for a printer with the widest possible gamut,
I think the widest gamut you can get with printing is the set of Pantone colors which are based on mixing recipes of the best available pigments for inks , printing colors, paints etc.
Epson is offering printers which cover most - 98% of those colors
https://mediaserver.goepson.com/ImC...43d00d40a3155825ba757bfaf081fa964228/original
'Reach up to 98.2% Pantone coverage with UltraChrome GS3 Red ink set' with solvent inks
O.k. - you would need a few €€€€ for such equipment ....

 

[berserk]

You are looking for a printer with the widest possible gamut,

Am I unique?
I thought everyone was eager for that.

That $25 000 pus VAT and transport is not the problem - my wife will not replace the piano for that "beast" and think it's anti social.

However - throwing out that 3880 and buying a Canon - would that give me more gamut.( I hear some here on Printerknowledge just now are doing - especially one!)

If the one you suggested is far to big, what enthusiast A2 printer has significantly better gamut?
(Pigments, with turbo, compressor, straight 6" outblow-tubes and without particle filter or cat. and around 600 hp)

 

[Roy Sletcher]

In answer to
Roy Sletcher


Earlier in this thread I wrote:

"That's why I'm happy reading this thread - it made me understand my shortcomings and why my outfit is not up to it."




Let talk fact instead:
That is as You wrote "VERY VERY CLEAR"

1/ I have a top notch 24x36 digitalcamera with very good lenses their flagship - there I'm satisfyed. $$$$'s
2/ I have a top notch WG-monitor - there I'm more than satisfyed $$$$'s
3/ I have enough know-how about color-managemen to dare to talk to people and humbly with the gurus -knowing more.
3/ OK I just have an I1pro2 and a I1pro Display - there are betters.
4/ My working environment are according to what the gurus recommend.
5/ I'm picky and stubborn
6/ I just have a Epson 3880 with Cone pro colors - there are better gears out there but they hardly fit in my home.
7/ My computer "has it". I promise You.
8/ My softs are highly regarded and I can tell that I have spent several years using and exploring them. Let's say they are in a way de facto standard for color-work.
9/ Tried and studied settings and fine polishing my work flow. Very intense!

Am I dumb? OK here I talk in subjectively in my own person and I'm no "shrink".
I do not believe so - Civil engineer M.Sc. and in my job all the time worked with math, physiks and chemestry being a structural designer. All having its precise knowledge and workflows. ---But have as some - short comings here and there. After all I'm regarded as a human person.

My photographing interest started in the mid fifties. Our family owned WBG-film making education films for the army but also documentaries for TV. From beginning of the sixties I have had an wet darkroom - color and BW. Members of many photo-clubs. (Pity I throw out the wet....)

But why are me and others here in the thread getting a crimped profile within the sRGB-colorspace.
Same printers - different inks and paper. I would expect at least reach sRGB.

You also wrote:
"For the record the Pro 3880 can, under correct conditions exceed AdobeRGB1988 colour space."

Tried to verify that by googling - found some bigger spaces but that was I think due to the paper chosen - but not at all "exceeded AdobeRGB 1988".

I'm eager - please help me find those places so I can verify how they did it and with what/how they precented it and measured it.

I do not at all want to challenge You or being rude - I like resistance and appreciate your interest, patience and knowledge.



/Gutta

Hi Gutta,

Please, please believe me that I am not in any way impugning your understanding and intelligence. I am not that smart myself so it would be very shortsighted for me to take that approach. We all learn from each other based on factual data and evidence based outcomes. It is to our mutual benefit. When the facts or evidence proves me wrong I have to "suck it up", but have usually learned something in the process.

I will be replying at length later (Probably couple of days) as right now I am on vacation in Prince Edward Island on Canada`s Atlantic Coast for another week. I am in a cottage with very poor and sporadic internet connection that keeps timing out and causes me to lose my messages and replies.

Will track down the reference to the 3880 gamut exceeding AdobeRGB1988 as I do not have it to hand right now. But remember printer gamuts depend heavily on the paper surface and inkset. Typically best with a high quality luster or smooth Baryta paper and photo black ink. Second the printer gamut is three dimensional and consequently NOT a "snug" fit to the aRGB1988 gamut volume shape. The 3880 is quite a wide-gamut printer and consequently it is recommended that you edit your files in ProPhoto RGB colour space and preferably 16 bit to be certain that all the colour the printer and your paper can reproduce will be available for it in your image file. The available printed gamut depends VERY heavily on these factors.

Sorry for the cop out, but I will come up with references in a couple of days.

rs

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

o.k. - those Epson printers are what they are called - large format printers...Epson plays with the references to the Pantone color set for several printer models - slightly smaller this one
https://epson.com/For-Work/Printers...or-P5000-Standard-Edition-Printer/p/SCP5000SE

Commercial Edition — includes an all-new Violet ink (in place of Light Light Black) to deliver an industry-best 99 percent PANTONE® PLUS FORMULA GUIDE solid-coated color matching2

and with a specific remark that these models won't work with refill - "Designed for use exclusively with Epson cartridges*"
That's all measured with a particular paper which is referenced, performance with other papers can vary widely.

Adobe does not publish a color space covering the Pantone color set, but there are various tables on the internet providing a best estimate of Lab values for these colors. I'm less familiar with the Canon printer family and their performance, whether they use the Pantone colors as a reference for their performance as well, and they offer printers with up to 12 colors to get the most out of their inks.

 

[berserk]

That's a nice one! Try to get profiles for that one and study in Gammutvision. However not sure about refilling - that printer is not really "cracked". Cone sells inks for it - but it's uncracked in the US. That said - non-US ones my be "locked" as well.

Just found this "Canon imagePrograf PRO-1000" - 11 inks (cyan, photo cyan, magenta, photo magenta, yellow, matte black, photo black, gray, photo gray, red, and blue) and a Chroma Optimizer. About half the price of the Epson P5000 - I don't find if it's "cracked" and can be used with quality third part inks. Try to get some profiles for studying. Around €1200. However no roll feed option and at http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRINT/canon-pro-1000/ says it's only head to head with Epson Surecolor 800 - that is not much more than a my simple 3880.

I have a feeling that printing technology in general is far behind, expensive, plastic, unnecessary complicated and not up to the rest of nowadays photographing gear. I hope for a breakthrough - cheap and quality and not robbing us by selling their inks at bandit prices. Printing industry needs a Kamprad (IKEA) together with a Bill Gate MAN. Perhaps a new revolutionary optical method with the inks in the paper.....( - you remember?)
Cheap papers with full Lab-color-space! Wi-Fi:ed from the computer to a gear with a lens projecting it on the paper moving forward and developed in a simple oscillation-magnetic field. If the papers are of the same method and can be is used in any printer - there would be competition and no bandit prices like for inks today.

Feel free to invite me to Silicone Valley - but be prepared to fund it and giving me free hands to pick brains!!

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

beyond Adobe RGB - I'm getting there - in a small region - with my age old R800 printer

I overlaid the sRBG gamut - with the light greenish tone - with the AdobeRGB space in the darker red tone and added an icm-profile I made for my R800 - with the precisioncolors P600 HD inks - that's the lighter blue gamut body - it is protruding from the Adobe gamut in the -a-b range - at the green colors. (I'm not showing you the opposite side - the R800 gamut there is smaller than the Adobe gamut).
And I'm not utilizing the printer at its best here , I'm not using genuine blue and red inks, I just mixed them from Y and M and M and C resp which would expand the gamut a little bit more, this was more a kind of test, I'm not using these inks at this time.
And I forgot to mention - that's a profile made for the PG230 Photo Glossy by Tecco.

 

[berserk]

In replay to Printer Master "Ink stained Fingers":

Impressed by Your achievement.

Glossy is for armatures - to simple - and it's reflective surface is nothing to hang around real art.
Semi-mat, silk might work. Still gamut and still most achievable gamut for that-

I want it simple - one printer with potential - not several printers , several inks ingenious blended.
I want just one to trust and getting into - that is explore it me making better prints,

I'll look in my purse not telling my wife!
Or wait until they fall from the sky!

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

silk - semi-matte - are we possibly talking about completely different types of papers ? Actually I was looking for some inks - their gloss, bronzing etc and not so much for papers, but I tested as well a Satin and a Lustre paper by Fotospeed
https://www.fotospeed.com/PF-Lustre-275/groupproduct/1148/
https://www.fotospeed.com/PF-Satin-270/groupproduct/1184/
and both have a very similar gamut compared to each other and to the glossy paper above

I didn't add a Sihl silk/seidenmatt because that as well has about the same gamut - exceeding AdobeRGB in the green -a-b range to a degree. A different ink was used for these tests.
It is quite different with matte papers, their gamut is smaller and the black level is somewhat higher.

 

[berserk]

I'm impressed by Your mixing. Also the gamut You reached.
To be noted though is that OBA's temporary increases gamut.

I'll see into the papers you pointed at.

Sihl silk/seidenmatt must be the same paper as I used in my test here. My UV-light torch show
noticeable amount of OBAs. The comparable Legacy Epson premium semi-matte has no OBA's at all.
Seems as if Epson now put the "Legacy" marking on all their new batches to show that it contains no OBAs. In a way simular surface to Sihl/satin. However.....You must throw up more dollars for those Epson papers. OK - there are other premium semi-matte papers out there without OBA - but prices for those do not differ that much, More a matter of taste.

So - sometimes to get good gamut You often have to chose between a more expensive quality paper or a cheaper OBA-paper as Sihl. I wonder if there are premium papers that have better gamut than those loaded with OBAs. To that comes to make papers without OBA's and with good white You have to use either acid or basic chemicals. A premium paper should be neutral Ph=7.

So the thread-starters observations make me even more depressed while my profile was carefully made on a Sihl OBA-paper that should increase gamut.

He he - all this only if one is picky!


I myself am not going into mixing exotic premium inks - I just want to buy a respectable ink and use it. I admire your efforts though - as there are for me no formulas or receipts - how to!
Take care! - It may explode or smoke You to death!!!!!