Does your pigment black ink run on plain paper when it gets wet?

[Tin Ho]

I once stood in front of a long isle of all kinds of printer paper in a computer store looking for paper specifically for pigmented ink printing of text. I could not find any. Most of them were either photo paper or coated inkjet paper for color graphics. Well, there is no reason why you can not print black text on coated inkjet papers. But think about it, it is obvious. They are all for color printing in fact. They will print black text well, just as well as color graphics and text. But there is one problem. if the nozzles for the text print head (PGI-5 and BCI-3ebk) are 5 times the size of photo print heads. If you use photo black ink in the PGI-5 and BCI-3eBK the print head will lay too much ink on paper. The result is the ink will smudge a little. This is just physics. It's wrong to blame ink (photo black ink) for this problem.

Pigmented ink is best to print black text on regular paper such as those for typewriters. When printed on some high quality plain paper the text will be very sharp and dark. It rivals laser prints actually.

Yes, you need to tell the printer that the coated inkjet paper you're are going to print on is plain paper. This is the only way to use the pigmented ink in the PGI-5 or BCI-3ebk cartridges. If you tell the printer that the paper is any of the photo papers (matte or whatever) the photo black ink from CLI-8bk will be used. The printer slows down quite a bit.

 

[ghwellsjr]

If you use photo black ink in the PGI-5 and BCI-3eBK the print head will lay too much ink on paper. The result is the ink will smudge a little. This is just physics. It's wrong to blame ink (photo black ink) for this problem.

I'm not blaming the photo black ink, I'm blaming the suppliers of so-called pigment black ink for mixing photo (dye) black ink in with it, without telling anyone. I'm not even suggesting that printing photo (dye) black ink on plain paper will run or smudge under normal use--just that it will run if the paper gets wet after the ink has dried. All I want is for everyone who has a Canon printer with a third-party pigment black cartridge or refilled ink to perform a normal nozzle check, let the ink dry, drip some water across the black grid pattern, and report whether it runs, or smears, or bleeds, or otherwise changes the appearance of the pattern. In two months, I can count the number of people who have responded to that request on one hand. Come on folks, make me use both hands.

 

[jandaco]

Jettec 3ebk cartridges also run

 

[jandaco]

Print-rite 3EBk cartridge ink smears a little.
I wonder if any UK compatible cartridge suppliers ink doesn't run!

 

[pebe]

I use refill ink from B&S Print Ltd of Bolton. I've just tried a printout and the smear is negligible.

 

[jackson]

Hobbicolors black pigment, WC-3eBK, used in BCI-3e carts doesn't run.

 

[ghwellsjr]

If you print on inkjet paper, not plain paper for copiers, then you will find the dye black ink will do better. You will need to print on inkjet coated paper if you print color text. So it isn't really that the dye black ink being so bad. It is really the print head for black text has larger nozzles and if you print on plain paper the dye ink is just no match to pigmented ink. But if you print color text on coated inkjet paper you will see a different result.

Thanks, Tin Ho. I did not know there was an inkjet coated paper that was not considered a photo paper. I will look for some. I do have some matte coated inkjet paper but it says it is photo quality and it does not run the dye black ink.

But I have a question: When you print on the inkjet coated paper with a printer that has pigment black ink, do you tell the printer that you are using plain paper (which will cause the pigment black ink to be used) or do you tell the printer that you are using one of the photo papers like matte (which will cause the dye black ink to be used)?

If the latter is the case, then it sounds like you would never ever use the pigment black ink so why bother getting a printer with it?

Well, I finally found some coated inkjet paper. It's made by HP:

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06c/A10-12771-215521-322564-322564-81636-91536-91537.html

It's a great paper for pigment black and dye colors. You specify plain paper. Works great in duplex mode.
If the paper gets water splashed on it, it won't run, smear or bleed, but it will warp. It's 24 lb. and you can buy it at Staples or Office Depot for less than $10 a ream.

Anyone else know of any others, especially cheaper?

 

[lin]

Hi I chanced on your thread as I was searching on the black pigment ink problem which I had. Before I begin, I would like to say sorry in advance for such a lengthy reply.

Recently just started using 3rd party refill inks on my OEM cartridges.

My 3rd party refilled black pigment kind of bleeds badly when it's overlay with colored dye ink on normal, ordinary A4 plain paper. However, my Original Canon Black Pigment ink does not have the same problem on the same paper & same setting which I tested for the refilled 3rd party black pigment ink.

These are my findings for my 3rd party black pigment ink for PGI-5BK cartridge which I did couple days ago.

Original Canon Black pigment ink (PGI-5BK)


3rd party Black Pigment Ink refilled into Canon PGI-5BK OEM cartridge


In case anyone here wondering that it's dye-black ink (CLI-8BK) and not pigment black ink which the printer had used, I placed the paper under running tap water to show that it's really black pigment ink. You will notice that all my 3rd party colored dye-inks all run/ 'disappeared' since they are dye-based, while my 3rd party black pigment ink doesn't run/'disappeared' much.

On normal, ordinary A4 plain paper (non-coated inkjet paper)


On inkjet coated ("waterproof") paper, just like my 3rd party refilled colored dye ink, the 3rd party black pigment ink adhered much better to the paper and didn't bleeds badly, the text actually appeared quite satisfactory even though when overlay with colored background. However the black pigment ink on this coated paper failed slightly at the highlighter test. You will see that it smeared slightly when you go over the text (evidently more so on bold black text) with a highlighter and the highlighter tip also picked up the black pigment ink. My original canon pigment ink does not have these problem of smudging badly or picking up the pigment ink onto the highlighter.

On inkjet coated paper


As I don't want to use dye black for PGI-5BK which is meant for black pigment (even though I read that there is no problem in using dye black in pigment black cartridge), I specifically requested from the seller for a pigment black ink to refill my canon pigment black PGI-5BK even though this black pigment ink cost more than black dye ink.

I guessed like what was mentioned by others, there could be a possibility that the 3rd party refill black pigment ink which I had purchased were a mixture of dye + pigment. I paid higher for black pigment ink only to find out that it's may have been a mixed of dye-pigment for which bleeds badly on normal plain paper. Of course, I could have printed on inkjet coated paper. But if that is the case, then I don't even need black pigment ink as even my dye-ink also adhered just alright on inkjet coated paper. But of course, a pigment ink will give even better result if only what I get are really pigment ink with some sort of quality and not something sub-standard. I believe there maybe others who may have good result or do not have the same problem of such mixture of dye+pigment ink so my situation maybe an isolated case and does not apply to others.

I guessed once I finished with this 3rd party black pigment ink, I will change the source for another made of 3rd party black pigment and see how it goes then. And see if the result varies from what I am experiencing now.

--- updates ----
* on Dec 27, 2007: Refer to my post #23. Sorry, it seems like the text over colored dye background in the above pictures were printed using black dye ink and not black pigment ink as advice by stratman. So the result above now seems irrevelent to this thread since it's about pigment black ink.

* on Jan 07, 2008 : Refer to my post #47. Realised that my pictures here, the black text printed using 3rd party ink were indeed using Pigment Black Ink since my 'Paper Media Type Option' selected during printing is 'Plain Paper'.

 

[canonfodder]

Lin,
The place where you parked your photos has some abusive popups. Some locked up my computer momentarily by trying to spread the links continuously.

In the future, you can place your photos right here on the forum with no hassle. At the top of the starting page, click on the link named Upload and you can enter photos there and take the link you are given and put it in your post where you want the photo to appear. You will have no connected popups or other trash links or risk of virus entries.

Thanks for joining and contributing to the forum. Your inputs are always wanted and this recent post of yours was very good.

canonfodder

 

[stratman]

Where did you get your 3rd party ink from and what brand?

What model Canon printer do you have?

According to Canon:

PGI-5 Pigment Black Ink is used ONLY For:
- Plain Paper Test (monochrome and grey scale)
- Envelopes
- Transparencies
- Duplex Printing On Plain Paper
- Camera Direct Printing on Plain Paper

CLI-8 Dye-Based Color Inks are used anytime color is printed and is used exclusively for:
- All Photo Paper types (including when Duplex printing)
- High Resolution Paper
- T-shirt Transfers
- CD-R's
- All Borderless Printing, on both PhotoPaper and Plain Paper


"My 3rd party refilled black pigment kind of bleeds badly when it's overlay with colored dye ink on normal, ordinary A4 plain paper."

Unless you are printing color only then refeeding the page back in to do just text, I thought Canon would use dye-based black ink when "overlay" printing onto the color images you have as your example.

Your discussion of pure pigment versus mixed pigment and dye for black ink leads me to suspect the specific manufacturer/supplier of your ink. For instance, Hobbicolors has stated in correspondence with me that the mixed ink will smear when highlited and you should use the pure pigment only black ink instead.

Hobbicolor ink is excellent ink, but you need to choose the PGI-5 ink that fits your needs best. It can be a little confusing because the pure pigment is referred to as "PIGMENT black" while the mixed pigment and dye-based ink is called "pigmentED black". Identification alphanumerics or name on the bottle should help you to determine which ink you have. A call or email to the merchant that sold you the ink might resolve the issue quickly too.