Does your pigment black ink run on plain paper when it gets wet?

[lin]

Post #30

lin:
Did the 80 gsm paper cause this problem as well? Has any paper worked well for you?

Did your issues begin only after you switched to this particular 3rd party ink, or, were you using a different brand of 3rd party ink that worked well previously?

I ran out of 80gsm plain paper and ink roughly about the same time. So I purchased this 3rd party refill ink & this 100gsm plain paper (that was said to be suitable for inkjet printing according to the description on the wrapper)....... Thinking that 100gsm will reduce the amount of "wetness" during double-sided printing should I print anything with graphics or where there is a heavy amount of dye color used.

I had been using Original Canon Ink all these while and this is my first time trying out 3rd party refill ink. I have not tried this 3rd party ink with any other paper except the inkjet coated paper & 100gsm paper. Usually, I finished one bulk before purchasing another bulk of paper. I didn't expect such bad bleeding issue to occur and paper/ink could be a possible cause and also the possibility of the type of highlighter playing a part in the smearing issue of black pigment text (even on coated paper).

Tin Ho, stratman,

Thanks for the valuable advice and insight to the problem with the black text "bleeding" over colored dye background and the "smearing" of black pigment text when run across with a highlighter. I will heed the suggestions given and try out other paper, ink, highlighter and explore different print setting to improve the situation.

Smile, thank you as well for suggesting of the skyhorse paper. Though I didn't see this brand before at my local store but I will keep my eyes opened in case I see this paper by chance.

 

[stratman]

Tin Ho:

No problems. This is a great forum and I enjoy reading your posts.

Nice find with the Canon High Resolution paper. My local Microcenter stocks it at $10 per 100 sheets and Costco at $8.88, if either have it at all.

 

[Tin Ho]

Lin, OEM ink is too expensive in a long term. You may still want to look for after market alternatives if you print a lot. Hope you will soon find a solution of ink/paper that work best for you.

Stratman, thanks for the kind words. I believe Canon HR-101 may be discontinued by Canon. For some reason I could not find it in any of my local stores that had it before. $10 is Canon's list price. It is still available on eBay and Amazon still. Most of those are NOS (new old stock). I really like this paper. I could not find any other paper that is as good or better at lower price. Even a box of 100 sheet GQ brand is not cheaper. When those NOS runs out it may be gone no more.

 

[lin]

According to Canon:

PGI-5 Pigment Black Ink is used ONLY For:
- Plain Paper Test (monochrome and grey scale)
- Envelopes
- Transparencies
- Duplex Printing On Plain Paper
- Camera Direct Printing on Plain Paper

CLI-8 Dye-Based Color Inks are used anytime color is printed and is used exclusively for:
- All Photo Paper types (including when Duplex printing)
- High Resolution Paper
- T-shirt Transfers
- CD-R's
- All Borderless Printing, on both PhotoPaper and Plain Paper

Hi My Canon printer uses these cartridges canon CLI-8C(blue), CLI-Y(Yellow), CLI-8M(Magenta), CLI-8BK & PGI-5BK. For the above pictures, I was printing using default setting, Plain paper, Standard Print Quality, Auto Color/Intensite and the rest of other setting remains default.

Thanks for correcting me that these text in the pictures are actually being printed using CLI-8 Dye-Based Color instead of pigment black ink. So I guessed it's the black dye ink that i should explore of changing since it bleeds badly when it printed over colored background.

Hi stratman, I just need to correct this again. I was right that my 3rd picture at post #18 where I run the picture under water (printed using plain paper setting) were really black pigment ink despite that color is printed at the sametime. According to my manual, when plain paper is selected as the Media Type, black pigment ink is used instead. I think if you look at your service manual for IP4200, the Print mode chart also indicated as such.

Anyway, I did further water test to ascertain that 3rd picture at post #18 was really using black pigment ink. You will notice that from the below picture (fig 2) that black text from the left picture did not fade/"disappear" so much as black text from the right picture. The black on the left at fig 2 below is still quite dark black just like my 3rd picture at post #18.

Fig 1 Before running under water


Fig 2 After running under water


However a point to note for those reading is that this current test (at this post) does not suggest that ink was the main reason for my bleeding black text over colored dye background or the text smears after running across with a highlighter. As stratman & Tin Ho had point out there could be other reasons such as paper/ink/highlighter which I need to experiment to ascertain where the problem lies. Or I could just change print setting to see if there is any improvement with the bleeding issue. Irregardless whether black dye or pigment, my black text just bleeds (just that my black pigment text bleeds more over colored dye background).

Here, I am just correcting my comment at post #23 where I assumed that the 3rd picture from post #18 was using CLI-8 black dye based after reading stratman post #20.

 

[stratman]

lin:

I didn't understand why you ran water over your prints before. Whether or not it was your intention to test if pigment or dye-based black was used for text in a color graphic, you have given emperical data showing that pigment ink appears to be is used. A simple and smart test. Thank you for this knowledge.

I have an MP830 printer. It may be that our printers select pigment black for the same but not all situations. It may be that my understanding of Canon's explanation is wrong. Would you please give the link to the graphic you used in your test? I would like to try it as well with OEM Canon inks.

I obtained the list of how the types of black ink are used from Canon's website (and echoed on several other websites) as my manual does not contain any data about how the inks are used. I've found only one reference applicable to our discusion as a "Note" and without any further clarification:

1) P. 137, Keeping the Best Printing Results: Note - If the printed area is traced with a highlight pen or paint-stick or stained with water or sweat, the ink may blur depending on the paper.

Your manual appears to offer a wealth of information not found in mine.

 

[ghwellsjr]

From post #20:

According to Canon:

PGI-5 Pigment Black Ink is used ONLY For:
- Plain Paper Test (monochrome and grey scale)
- Envelopes
- Transparencies
- Duplex Printing On Plain Paper
- Camera Direct Printing on Plain Paper

CLI-8 Dye-Based Color Inks are used anytime color is printed and is used exclusively for:
- All Photo Paper types (including when Duplex printing)
- High Resolution Paper
- T-shirt Transfers
- CD-R's
- All Borderless Printing, on both PhotoPaper and Plain Paper

Now here is something I just learned: dye black ink is used on plain paper when doing borderless printing. Thanks for pointing this out, stratman. Now I'm going to have to go back an edit all my posts where I claimed that pigment black was only used on plain paper and dye black was only used on photo paper.

 

[lin]

lin:

I didn't understand why you ran water over your prints before. Whether or not it was your intention to test if pigment or dye-based black was used for text in a color graphic, you have given emperical data showing that pigment ink appears to be is used. A simple and smart test. Thank you for this knowledge.

I have an MP830 printer. It may be that our printers select pigment black for the same but not all situations. It may be that my understanding of Canon's explanation is wrong. Would you please give the link to the graphic you used in your test? I would like to try it as well with OEM Canon inks.

I obtained the list of how the types of black ink are used from Canon's website (and echoed on several other websites) as my manual does not contain any data about how the inks are used. I've found only one reference applicable to our discusion as a "Note" and without any further clarification:

1) P. 137, Keeping the Best Printing Results: Note - If the printed area is traced with a highlight pen or paint-stick or stained with water or sweat, the ink may blur depending on the paper.

Your manual appears to offer a wealth of information not found in mine.

Hi stratman, I saw this thread ( http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2054 ), post #8. I thought you were using Canon IP4200. As such, I was referring to the 'Print mode' page of the Service Manual for this printer and not the 'Canon User Guide manual'.

Here are the requested pictures
1. Big Picture: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_bigprinttest550.png
2. Small Picture: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_smallprinttest400.png

You may insert or paste the pictures into your Word Document etc. You may also like to resize the picture further using any graphic editing software like photoshop etc to suit your testing like I do. This will help to reduce the waste of ink.

****** updates ******
On Jan 07, 2008 : Have re-uploaded the above pictures as the previous pictures when saved in JPEG format, the resolutions were reduced. The reloaded pictures are now in the same resolution as what I was using originally. Just that I convert it to PNG format so that I avoid exceeding the size limit implemented by Nifty-Stuff. And I have tested these reloaded pictures and I get the same test result as shown in my original post #18.

 

[stratman]

Hi stratman, I saw this thread ( http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2054 ), post #8. I thought you were using Canon IP4200. As such, I was referring to the 'Print mode' page of the Service Manual for this printer and not the 'Canon User Guide manual'.

Here are the requested pictures
1. Big Picture: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_inktestbig400.jpg
2. Small Picture: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_inktestsmall160.jpg

Ahhh, the Service Manual. I do not have that for my MP830.

Thank you for the links to the graphics. Earlier today I did my own water torture test. I had printed a mixed color graphic and text duplex page a few weeks ago, so the ink is well dried. Some may recognize the topic! I ran tap water over one half the page, let it dry and then scanned both sides of the page.

The scanned images are contained in a 1MB PDF file at http://rapidshare.com/files/81111331/Water_Fastness_Pigment_Ink_Test.pdf.

Results: The text is PIGMENTED ink with very little to essentially no bleeding on the side turned up for reading BUT a lot of bleeding can be seen of the pimented ink from the backside of the page. The situation is the same when you turn over the page. How strange!

Of course, the dye-based CMY color CLI-8 ink bleeds. streaks, seeps, etc.

Paper used was Hammermill Ultra Premium Inkjet, 24 lb., 96 Brightness, Item #16601-1, Acid Free, Made In USA. Nice paper, especially when on sale.(There is a remote possibility the paper was Xerox Premium Multipurpose, 24 lb., 96 Brightness, Item # 428437, Acid Free, Made In USA. Good results in my Fax, Laser and Inkjet.)

All ink was OEM Canon.

Printer is Canon MP830.

Conclusion: More corroborative evidence that Canon's recent chipped printers use Pigment Black for black text even when there is color on the same plain paper page.

Thank you for the information, lin! I will refine my Ink Usage list.

 

[lin]

Hi stratman, just a note, I have reloaded the above pictures at post #47 due to my realization that the previous pictures in JPEG format had resolutions being reduced greatly.

Well, I have not tested this, but according to the service manual, if the borderless printing is selected, it will use dye black ink despite having selecting Plain Paper as the Media Type Option. Anyway, when the Borderless Printing Option is selected, a dialog prompt will hint that borderless printing in Plain Paper is not recommended as user may encounter the problem described in the dialog prompt.