Does your pigment black ink run on plain paper when it gets wet?

[Smile]

I think it is so expensive because you can print on both sides, I recently tried skyhorse 90gsm coated paper that was surprisingly good, it even outperformed way more expensive HP coated paper. The prices were very good 100 sheets cost about 6.5$ even compared to HP coated roll paper that I uses to cut to desired size it's still very cheap.

The reproducible color gamut is a bit larger with skyhorse, can't tell any long term color fading because I bought it recently.

http://www.tianma.net.cn/images/product_photopaper_show_1.jpg

Just to clarify. My above mentioned 100gsm paper is not a coated paper. It's just ordinary A4 plain paper which is in 100gsm. That's all. But it's cost twice as much compared to 80gsm which I only realised during payment. Obviously for 100gsm, it will cost a bit more but I didn't expect it to be twice the value of the 80gsm.

Here, if it's coated paper, it would cost 5 times for the same amount of realm of 500 sheets of the 100gsm which I purchased. And it would be 10 times the cost of 80gsm (500 sheets). So it's not possible for me to buy 500 sheets of coated paper.

Strange prices indeed then, paper prices I pay are:

DATA COPY EVERYDAY, A4, 80 g/m2 500 sheets ~ 6.5$ (0.013$ one page)
Canon GP-501 Glossy paper A4 100 sheets ~ 25$ (0.25$ one page)
Canon GP-501 Glossy paper 4x6in 100 sheets~ 9.3$ (0.10$ one page)

If you want some economy then for example get paper like TEPEDE Roll paper 180gsm photo glossy, then cut it to desired size etc. Advantage is price 4.6 photo will cost 0.057$ and A4 sheet around 0.22$ and quality like canon photo paper pro.

The coated paper I wrote about from skyhorse is packed in 100 sheet only as far as I know. So if it more expensive than I wrote where you live you should still be able to buy it.

 

[Tin Ho]

Just did some printing today and took the opportunity to experiment a little. I again saw the similar smearing Lin was talking about. I changed paper several times and found differences of smearing on different paper. I finally printed on a sheet of Canon high resolution paper, set the paper type correctly then print. The smearing was almost none exist. This also resulted the best print quality as well. So ink quality as well as paper choices are all directly related to print quality in one way or another. Finding a best combination is really necessary. Higher priced paper may not be a best choice in Lin's case. Since he is not in USA or Europe where most members are located the best suggestion to Lin is probably experiment and experiment. Change papers and if possible change ink as well. Don't forget to change setup too as a part of the experiment.

 

[stratman]

Just did some printing today and took the opportunity to experiment a little. I again saw the similar smearing Lin was talking about. I changed paper several times and found differences of smearing on different paper. I finally printed on a sheet of Canon high resolution paper, set the paper type correctly then print. The smearing was almost none exist. This also resulted the best print quality as well. So ink quality as well as paper choices are all directly related to print quality in one way or another. Finding a best combination is really necessary. Higher priced paper may not be a best choice in Lin's case. Since he is not in USA or Europe where most members are located the best suggestion to Lin is probably experiment and experiment. Change papers and if possible change ink as well. Don't forget to change setup too as a part of the experiment.

What ink are you using?

Are you talking about "smearing" like when you highlite or rub the printed are with your finger and it streaks, or, are you talking about "bleeding" of ink due to too much liquid in the ink (alcohol or water) and/or too porous a paper?

 

[Tin Ho]

It's OEM ink. I have always a set of OEM cartridges set aside as spares for purposes of comparison or testing. Please see post #18 for the kind of smearing Lin described.

 

[stratman]

It's OEM ink. I have always a set of OEM cartridges set aside as spares for purposes of comparison or testing. Please see post #18 for the kind of smearing Lin described.

If your Canon OEM ink bleeds then it is either counterfeit, degraded or your paper is crap. If highlited text smears then it is either degraded or counterfeit Canon OEM, crap paper, crap aftermarket 3rd party ink, a mixed pigment-dye black PGI-5, or your environmental humidity/temperature affects drying time and you are highliting before the pigment ink is dry.

Lin has uploaded some new photos/links and I finally got a good look. His problem is a combination of smearing and bleeding. His paper is not good for his CLI-8 ink (or vice versa) and his PGI-5 ink is not good for highliting.

Solution is try a different brand paper, one made specifically for inkjet printers and not a multipurpose paper like his current selection. Alternatively, he could try different dye-based inks which have a different amount of alcohol/water as solvent to reduce or eliminate bleeding. Definately he should go with "pure" pigment PGI-5 black ink to prevent the smearing of highlited text. If his PGI-5 ink is already labeled as "pigment", then he needs to change ink manufacturers, pay full price for Canon OEM or learn to live with it. It is possible that a change in paper may "fix" his smearing issues too. It is also possible that his highliter does not play nice with pigment ink, having solvents or additives that react poorly with his PGI-5. Trying a different brand of highliter would resolve that riddle.

 

[Tin Ho]

If your Canon OEM ink bleeds then it is either counterfeit, degraded or your paper is crap.

My OEM cartridges came with the printer when it was purchased new. I had an ip4200 then upgraded to ip4300. I also bought used cartridges for refilling and kept my original so that I can go back to OEM if I run into any problems. My saved original set from my ip4200 have been used up and now being refilled but I still have the set from my ip4300. These saved OEM original carts have allowed me to keep my ip4300 in check. They are not counterfeit nor degraded. I do not agree that the paper is crap either.

If highlited text smears then it is either degraded or counterfeit Canon OEM, crap paper

You seem to have missed the point. Lin's problem was't because of highlighting text. It was a problem in printing black text with pigmented ink within blocks of colors printed with dye inks. It is a graphic that should have been printed with dye inks only for best result. If there are also black blocks in the print they would have been printed by the black pigmented ink from the PGI5 cart too. The black blocks would have a weired look because other colors are printed by dye inks. Just imagine to print a photo on a matte photo paper but set the paper choice to plain paper. All the black spots would have been black pigmented ink but colors been dye ink. Or try to print on glossy photo paper to see the maximum weired look.

 

[stratman]

Tin Ho:

Instead of "crap", I'll say that the paper is not good for the intended result. What you consider a problem, others may not. I have not encountered bleeding issues on good quality paper with Canon OEM inks. I have had smearing of black text when it is embedded in color or printed by the CLI-8 black cartridge and I then highlite it with a Sharpie Accent in Orange (my color of choice). I would agree that lin has quality problems that are unacceptable.

There are only so many things that can be the cause of lin's problems: Ink, Paper, Printer, Environment and/or Highliter.

Lin described TWO problems:

1) BLEEDING of ink when printing black text over color and all colors on plain paper. This appears to be an osmotic effect from the type of paper used and/or a dilutional effect from the type of ink used.
2) SMEARING of ink when highliting black text which can be from poor paper, poor ink, environmental conditions, reactive ink from the highliter or a combination of these issues. Please take a look at Post #18 again and you can read about and see a picture of his highlited text smearing issue.

My previous post sums up what could be the problem and how to correct them. I'm sure others can come up with other reasons, but the money is on one or more of the areas I've outlined.

Since lin stated that the bleeding issue did NOT occur with Canon OEM ink but DID occur with refill ink even on the same coated injet paper, it's probably a good bet that it's the aftermarket ink causing his bleeding problem. His problem only worsened when he printed on plain, non-coated inkjet paper. Ditto for the PGI-5 aftermarket refill ink and his highliter smearing - happened even with the coated paper - Yet another piece of evidence pointing out the aftermarket ink is a poor performer.

Obviously, lin's issues are mitigated by the use of high quality coated paper. The question is whether he can live with the imperfections produced by his ink and paper.

I thought it was common understanding that the likelihood of poor aftermarket inks was highest when purchasing Chinese manufactured ink. It sounds like that is where lin's came from (see Post #27). I hope he can either find a reputable manufacturer/retailer in his area or be able to order known high quality inks from the internet. If he were to tell us where he is from, and he has not given many specifics outside of the paper he recently bought, at least the general area, maybe a fellow poster can tell him where to get better inks.

One other suggestion for lin is to check the Printing Preferences prior to printing. Make sure Print Quality is set to Standard or High and not Fast or Draft mode. Also, make sure you are using the correct printer profile or media/paper type before printing.

 

[Tin Ho]

Stratman, from looking at the first scan Lin posted, which was printed with OEM ink, I saw the smearing I experienced before. Lin did not consider that a problem because the one printed with after market ink was much worse. If you look at the first scan in the red area you can see the letter "e" and "d" all have some slight smearing on the edge of the letters. Yes paper and ink can both contribute to the kind of smearing even using OEM ink. I experimented with different paper and found some would smear less but some would smear more. They were not crap paper. They are just not the right paper for the ink. And my solution to the problem was to print with dye inks only because what I printed were really color graphics with black letters within color graphics.

I found that Canon High Resolution Paper to be excellent for printing my color graphics. This was why I once asked in this forum where did all Canon High Resolution Paper HR-101 go, because I could not find them in my local computer stores including Staples and Office Depot. I found it work extremely well in printing color graphics including black text on top of color blocks (what Lin had problems in) with all dye inks. I just had to set the medium to high resolution paper and the black would not be printed with ink from the PGI5 ink cartridge.

Lin's problem has something to do with the ink and the paper he used. What I am trying to point out is if the ink he used is fine he can print on good quality coated inkjet paper such as Canon HR-101 and print with dye inks only. He won't have the smearing problems any more, except that he can not highlight his black text with liquid highlighter still.

 

[stratman]

Tin Ho:

It appears you and I have a communication problem.

The dye-based ink printing of black text on color graphic is a bleeding issue in my opinion, not a smearing problem. For there to be a smearing problem there must be some mechanical force, not osmosis, causing the ink to move outside its intended location. Examples of smearing are that caused by physical/mechanical rubbing with an object suggest as finger, highliter, printer roller, etc. Bleeding issues are from either osmotic forces due to the construction of the paper and/or the solvent and ionic constitution of the ink.

Lin also had a smearing problem as seen in his highlited text problem (you did not remark on this, did you not see it?). One can also say he had a smearing problem with his image of plain paper ink streaking from the mechanical force and solvent action of the water he ran over the printed paper. It would not be wrong to say there is bleeding as well. Why he thought running water over the printing was useful, I don't know, but he did it and the results are undeniable.

Lin does not give many details on the availability of paper in his location. Either it is unavailable or cost prohibitive to get better paper. I agree that Canon's High Resolution paper is a nice paper for high quality mixed graphic/text printing where photo paper would be overkill. I could not find it at my local Microcenter last time out and bought Inland Pro Glossy Photo Paper (8.5"X11") which is heavier weight than than I would like but is reasonably priced and worked ok for the intended purpose.

You and I can argue over minutiae till the cows come home but it won't help lin. His aftermarket inks worked reasonably well (IMO) with coated injet paper except when he prints text from the (assumed) PGI-5 cartridge and then gets smearing when using a highliter. If he is unhappy with his current results, his choices are to change all inks to a different manufacturer, change aftermarket pigmented ink only, revert back to OEM Canon PGI-5 ink, revert back to all OEM Canon ink, find more compatible paper, use a different highliter, stop highliting altogether or learn to live with it.

The best thing we can do for lin is suggest different aftermarket ink and/or paper which he can afford and is available wherever he is located. I would hope that someone in this forum can do just that, but we need to know where he is located first.

 

[Tin Ho]

Stratman, sorry, we do have a problem understanding each other. I use the term smearing, which to me is the action of the print head that sprays ink to begin with. At the moment the print head sprays the ink onto the intended landing zone the ink spreads out of there into neighboring area depending on if there is any dye ink around. I admit that I most likely had used a wrong term. I did not think of using the term bleeding. Bleeding to me is ink continues to flow. Lin did use the term bleeding and I should have used the same term for the discussion. I stand corrected. Thank you for making the correction. Now I hope you can understand my points.

You are right I did not see Lin's problem of highlighting his text. I looked at the scans he posted and I saw only the bleeding issue from there. Then because we used different terms for the discussion we have been debating on different things. Stupid me! Lin used the term of bleeding too.

I had the "bleeding" problem with OEM ink printing on plain paper as Lin did with his after market ink and paper. My finding was that it's best to print graphics with dye inks only on coated inkjet paper. It will reduce or eliminate the bleeding issue. You can print on plain paper but set the medium type to matte photo paper or high resolution paper so that only dye inks are used to print.

So my point is really that if you print graphics don't print with PGI5 for black text and anything else that is black. You can do it but to me I found it problematic and bleeding is one problem. Bronzing from the black ink is another I can remember. PGI5 ink is best for black text for anything that is text only. You can mix colored text among black text but as long as they are separated by space bleeding caused by the reaction between dye and pigmented ink will not occur.

I ended up buying 10 boxes of Canon HR-101 from Amazon about a month ago at around $6 to $7 per box. This is my best and cheap paper for graphics. HR-101 is in fact just a brand of coated inkjet paper. I believe Lin can find good quality coated paper in his local stores too. Printing graphics on plain paper never yield good colors anyway. He should consider coated paper if he wants quality prints. There are plain paper that have very high brightness (or whiteness) index. I do not consider those coated inkjet paper. They are still plain paper but being whiter only. Coated inkjet paper is sold in 20, 50 , or 100 sheets per package. Plain paper is sold in 500 sheet realms.