Canon Pixma Pro 10 Refilling

[Dredmanlaw]

Of course we are trying to help.
But there is no way we can re write the existing profiles which were apparently made with PK rather than MK.

At least I understand ( I think ) what it is you would want to achieve.
You wan to be able to for example use a profile from Red River for Polar Matte or Aurora Fine art natural with Red River's profiles and have you PRO-20 or PRO-1 print with MATTE BLACK Ink using MATTE paper choice on the driver. That of course forces the printer to use PK rather than the desired MK. It is the same thing on my PRO-9500MKII and I agree with you that it is crazy. So the only choice I would have is to use Fine art setting with a 35mm border and then use Red River's Profile for that paper even though it was make using PK rather than MK. The differences will probably be indistinguishable.

If I have that wrong please correct me.
The problem is that if you use MATTE paper choice to print the color profile patches it uses PK rather than MK as one would think it would use.

I never realized that those printer behaved in that manner since I mostly do not use any fine art of Matte media on my PRO-9500MKII since I print most is not all my Matte media on a PRO3800 set up strictly for that.

I just did some example prints using Matte Paper choice with Canon profile for matte and yes, blacks are indeed dull as hell.
Using the Fine Art setting and their profile does not seem to improve the situation much more though! They do not even come close to what the PRO3800 can produce. The PRO-9500MKII is a ten color printer by the way.

Maybe Mike or from PC can chime in with some other suggestions.

Joe

YES! This is what I have been trying to communicate unsuccessfully. I am in communications with the red river people for their OEM profiles and I have been on here trying to get Mike's ear before I just call up there and bother him. That's if he thinks it is a problem.

Sam

 

[Dredmanlaw]

Canon don’t wish you to have good quality on anything other than their products so what your facing now is probably the tip of the iceberg, so we’re back to tricking the machine to do what you want it to do, i.e. workaround.

But Canon's paper sure is inexpensive when it is on sale.

 

[Dredmanlaw]

OK this is an example:

I apologize for the subject matter. It is what I was working on. The same image printed three ways. I want to point out three issues that are more clear when the prints are right in front of you.

First: The blacks are clearly deeper on both fine art settings. The Canon is slightly deeper, but could be a function of the paper or the profile. My numbers with the eyedropper tool from left to right 17,16,17 4,1,0 and 0,0,0. Of course these numbers are from the picture I took of a picture and it is much more easily visible IRL. The leftmost one is dull. The middle is high contrast with most of the deeps shadows blocking up, and the right one looks about what I have on my screen and what I want.

Second: The contrast/grey areas on the RR matte paper and Canon Fine art settings are more true to what I have on my calibrated screen and intend to print. The contrast is too strong on the middle one. I blame that on the profile not taking into account the deeper blacks of the matte ink.

Finally: The Canon one is clearly the best looking one, which I again blame on the Red River profile, but I could be wrong.

 

[jtoolman]

The Hat. Why wouldn't Filling a PK cart with MK ink and then producing profiles using Matte Paper as the paper choice for the profile creation work?

This way you will be using MK ink when printing the profile targets.
Your profile will be based on targets printed with MK and Matte Paper choice.
You could use these basic settings to produce custom profiles for ANY other brand of matte or Matte art papers and get the results of MK ink use.
Then when you print on those papers you simply choose Matte Paper as the choice, quality setting used during the profile creation, size, turn off color management in the driver and use the custom paper profile you made for that paper to print from your editing app.

The resulting print will indeed be printed with MK even when choosing Matte paper as the choice and you will not be forced to use any of the fine art papers and their forced rules about border width, and paper feed path.

If you really want to take this a step further, you could even prepare an OEM MK cart but swop its chip for a PK chip and simply load it on the PK position. The driver will still recognize it but will be shooting with MK ink. Problem solved. If one will never use the printer for Glossy, Luster, Satin, or Baryta papers with a sheen, then this will solve all these problems.
I have printers only for PK ink use and I have printer on which I only use MK ink use.
I can also force any printer to do whatever I want it to do. Not a big problem.

Joe

 

[Dredmanlaw]

The Hat. Why wouldn't Filling a PK cart with MK ink and then producing profiles using Matte Paper as the paper choice for the profile creation work?

This way you will be using MK ink when printing the profile targets.
Your profile will be based on targets printed with MK and Matte Paper choice.
You could use these basic settings to produce custom profiles for ANY other brand of matte or Matte art papers and get the results of MK ink use.
Then when you print on those papers you simply choose Matte Paper as the choice, quality setting used during the profile creation, size, turn off color management in the driver and use the custom paper profile you made for that paper to print from your editing app.

The resulting print will indeed be printed with MK even when choosing Matte paper as the choice and you will not be forced to use any of the fine art papers and their forced rules about border width, and paper feed path.

If you really want to take this a step further, you could even prepare an OEM MK cart but swop its chip for a PK chip and simply load it on the PK position. The driver will still recognize it but will be shooting with MK ink. Problem solved. If one will never use the printer for Glossy, Luster, Satin, or Baryta papers with a sheen, then this will solve all these problems.
I have printers only for PK ink use and I have printer on which I only use MK ink use.
I can also force any printer to do whatever I want it to do. Not a big problem.

Joe

Joe

That would solve one person's problem. Does not fix the problem for purchasers of third party paper and inks. If you have the hardware to profile, the expertise to profile, the time to profile, the different papers that you might use, separate printers for pk and mk inks, and print enough to ensure that those multiple printers don't clog from inactivity, then I guess you don't really have a problem. I don't have any of those things, so I rely on the third party paper and ink manufacturers to make my profiles.

 

[The Hat]

The Hat. Why wouldn't Filling a PK cart with MK ink and then producing profiles using Matte Paper as the paper choice for the profile creation work?

This way you will be using MK ink when printing the profile targets.
Your profile will be based on targets printed with MK and Matte Paper choice.
You could use these basic settings to produce custom profiles for ANY other brand of matte or Matte art papers and get the results of MK ink use.
Then when you print on those papers you simply choose Matte Paper as the choice, quality setting used during the profile creation, size, turn off color management in the driver and use the custom paper profile you made for that paper to print from your editing app.

The resulting print will indeed be printed with MK even when choosing Matte paper as the choice and you will not be forced to use any of the fine art papers and their forced rules about border width, and paper feed path.

If you really want to take this a step further, you could even prepare an OEM MK cart but swop its chip for a PK chip and simply load it on the PK position. The driver will still recognize it but will be shooting with MK ink. Problem solved. If one will never use the printer for Glossy, Luster, Satin, or Baryta papers with a sheen, then this will solve all these problems.
I have printers only for PK ink use and I have printer on which I only use MK ink use.
I can also force any printer to do whatever I want it to do. Not a big problem.
Joe

This is such a complex subject and so everyone is coming at it from their own point of view, so no one is wrong and no one is right.

I couldn’t agree more with you Joe because I taught I had said exactly the same as you, but as I said complex it is.

Your post above makes perfect sense to me but we are not the ones with this complex problem and so we need another way to convince @Dredmanlaw that he can achieve his goal if he looks at it from another point of view.

It’s like the start of a journey, some guys will start where they are, some where they think they should be, and some have already started and don’t know they have yet..

 

[jtoolman]

I agree with you, but also with Dredmanlaw's situation.
He does not have an army of printers and profiling equipment like I and others do.
Options are not there for him!
I don;'t have access to a PRO-10 or 1 but I knew I had heard of the same situation being true on the PRO 9500MKII and indeed it is.

Prints done on Matte Media using the Matte paper choice are dreadful! Even on CANON Matte Paper!
D-Max is simply not there.
Using Fine art paper choice and feeding through the front feed does not improve things much at all ( I am using IS inks ). So I am not sure what is going on here, at least with my printer and ink combo.
Prints on PRO luster are great. BUT...........
The funny thing is that though the magenta ink actually has the same gloss as the paper base itself, the other colors, specially the PK are so much glossier that it imparts a look of gloss differential on all magenta/red areas, even though those areas actually match the base gloss ( unprinted borders ) or sheen of the PRO Luster paper. So dark tones that contain PK are much glossier than the actual plain paper base.
The only way to correct for this is to run the prints through a GLOP printer!

I would love to hear from CANON why the PRO series of Canon pigment printer's are using PK on Matte Papers and MK on Art Papers.

It makes Zero sense!!!

Joe

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

It sounds like Canon owes us an update. Are they aware of the situation?

 

[jtoolman]

Well, it says to me is that CANON must think that using PK ink on all the Matte paper choices, which is what basically all of the other paper manufactures have unknowingly used when creating profiles for their Matte papers, supposedly produces excellent prints with full deep blacks. Unfortunately the opposite is true. The results are simply dismal. Oh and not much better when using their own Fine Art Paper choice.

If they were to rewrite the printer driver, to repair this error, all the paper manufactures who have maybe also unknowingly made all of those profiles for their products, will have to redo them.

What a head ache!!!!!!!!!

Joe

 

[The Hat]

What, Canon Inc. owning up to a MISTAKE, pigs may fly.
At least some of us have found a workaround..