Canon Pixma Pro9500 print head nozzles are 3 pl in size. Some Canon print heads for dye based color inks have 1 pl nozzles. I believe clogging issues make it difficult if not impossible to have smaller than 3 pl nozzles for pigment based color ink to not clog.
Using micropigment ink in Canon BCI-6/CLI-8 dye ink photoprinters
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The R800, R1800 and R1900 from Epson has 1.5pl nozzles and handle pigment ink very well. Maybe the hypothesis that it is the size of nozzle that is the contributor of clogging a bit flawed? Perhaps it is the composition of the ink mated to the ink ejection technology that is not compatible?
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Mikling, you're right about the ink: bubblejet based inks contains more liquid to compensate for the sudden evaporation during firing from the nozzles onto the paper. When using Epson style pigmented ink into these printers chances are very high that by liquid lost due to this evaporation that the saturation limit is reached beyond precipitation, causing the pigment particles to stick together, then: bye bye printhead !!!
My question would be: is it possible to use HP's Vivera colour pigmented inks (like yellow, cyan, magenta) in Canon's dye bubblejet based printers, since both HP and Canon are using the same printing technology ? I know that the pigmented text black is different, but what about injecting HP Vivera or even Canon's Lucia pigment ink in those dye-based Canon cartridges ?
Epson's Durabrite pigmented ink CAN NOT be used in these cartridges due to different printing technology and thus formulations (viscosity and surface tension are the most important differences).
My question would be: is it possible to use HP's Vivera colour pigmented inks (like yellow, cyan, magenta) in Canon's dye bubblejet based printers, since both HP and Canon are using the same printing technology ? I know that the pigmented text black is different, but what about injecting HP Vivera or even Canon's Lucia pigment ink in those dye-based Canon cartridges ?
Epson's Durabrite pigmented ink CAN NOT be used in these cartridges due to different printing technology and thus formulations (viscosity and surface tension are the most important differences).
Vivera is not pigment and by all indicators should be adaptable to the Canon printhead. However, I will urge you to look at the Vivera specs carefully and determine if you think it is worth it. Furthermore, if you want vivera badly, just pick up a used Hp printer and forget about messing with the Canon. We know these machines are disposable and can be acquired a a very nominal cost used.
The next question is why would one want to adapt Lucia to a Canon? I Imagine that by the failures of adapting so far, no one has come to the aspect that the profiling will need to be changed drastically and sometimes even a custom color profile can't correct for the firmware that was designed for different ink shades.
The long and short of it is thus; if you want to print color pigment at low cost, find a used Epson pigment printer in good shape. Sometimes the struggle isn't worth the effort. ........................
Pharmacist, you're getting to the heart of the issue with pigment ink and thermal heads. The tolerance for non ideal situations is low and can be terminal. Witness the redundant print nozzles and nozzle remapping of clogged nozzles on HP pigment printers and the requirement for auto nozzle checking to correct for this. Intrinsically once the printer has determined that a nozzle is clogged ( really kogation issue) it basically gives up and says goodbye and let's use another one. Canon heads are rated for a limited lifespan. Epson printheads do not have these problems but do consume more ink because they must clear the nozzles on startup. However, if the printing is done continuously the ink consumption is not that bad. It is the startup cycles that consume a lot of ink for purging and priming.
The next question is why would one want to adapt Lucia to a Canon? I Imagine that by the failures of adapting so far, no one has come to the aspect that the profiling will need to be changed drastically and sometimes even a custom color profile can't correct for the firmware that was designed for different ink shades.
The long and short of it is thus; if you want to print color pigment at low cost, find a used Epson pigment printer in good shape. Sometimes the struggle isn't worth the effort. ........................
Pharmacist, you're getting to the heart of the issue with pigment ink and thermal heads. The tolerance for non ideal situations is low and can be terminal. Witness the redundant print nozzles and nozzle remapping of clogged nozzles on HP pigment printers and the requirement for auto nozzle checking to correct for this. Intrinsically once the printer has determined that a nozzle is clogged ( really kogation issue) it basically gives up and says goodbye and let's use another one. Canon heads are rated for a limited lifespan. Epson printheads do not have these problems but do consume more ink because they must clear the nozzles on startup. However, if the printing is done continuously the ink consumption is not that bad. It is the startup cycles that consume a lot of ink for purging and priming.
These two statements of yours need some further brain exercise. They appear to be "one or another" in the way you stated them. Are you trying to tell that nozzle size has nothing to do with print head clogging? If that's what you are trying to say, please explain what Canon Pro9500 has 3 pl nozzles. They already have 1 pl nozzles on much cheaper printers. Why do they go back and reduce it in a far more expensive printer so that customers pay more but get less?mikling said:
Perhaps it's because of the composition of the ink that requires the nozzle size to be larger. OK, I can agree. But what would happen if you use this ink in an 1 pl print head? Will it not clog? I have yet to hear from anyone to claims that nozzle size is not a contributor to print head clogging. Wish you could explain why you question that it may be flawed.
You should pose the question of nozzle size to Canon. They have a 1-800-number. I can't answer their design decisions.
But what you are missing is that all inks are not the same. The technology of a thermal head and piezo head is vastly different and requires different ink formulations. the piezo head is far more tolerant of a wider range of liquids without damage. Pharmacist has already alluded to this.
Do a little Googling or Yahooing as they need the business days. Learn the difference bewteen a piezo and thermal head and then it will become clear.
I already stated once before that nozzle size is not everything. It's like woofer size is also not everything for good bass or more megapixels does not always equal better pictures. You have to get beyond that fluff or the stuff you find when walking in meadows where male cows are feeding. ( grandad...I loved that one, couldn't resist)
But what you are missing is that all inks are not the same. The technology of a thermal head and piezo head is vastly different and requires different ink formulations. the piezo head is far more tolerant of a wider range of liquids without damage. Pharmacist has already alluded to this.
Do a little Googling or Yahooing as they need the business days. Learn the difference bewteen a piezo and thermal head and then it will become clear.
I already stated once before that nozzle size is not everything. It's like woofer size is also not everything for good bass or more megapixels does not always equal better pictures. You have to get beyond that fluff or the stuff you find when walking in meadows where male cows are feeding. ( grandad...I loved that one, couldn't resist)
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Sorry, I looked at the HP site and Vivera is certainly a pigment ink, albeit pigmented (hybrid pigment + dye ink). I once extract some ink from a HP 334 cartridge with a syringe and the colours looks opaque, thus this is a pigment(ed) ink.mikling said:
You are not answering the question. Does the size of nozzles contribute to print head clogging? It doesn't take a genius to know that there is a difference between the piezo and thermal print head technology. And of course the inks are thus formulated with different requirements. Boys and girls are born differently thus they dress differently. It does not need google or yahoo to know that fact. Thank you for the suggestion of learning more than I need to know the differences. I only want to lean one thing. In my post I believed that size of nozzles is a factor of the clogging issue of print heads. You replied and suggested that it is a flawed concept. Would you please educate me and perhaps others why nozzle size does not contribute to the print head clogging issue? Googling and Yahooing to learn about the print head technologies is a good one but it is barking at a wrong tree for a dog.mikling said:
The Vivera brand has been extended to the pigment inks of HP. However, the first Vivera as appeared on the 9x and 5x series of desktop printers etc are not pigment but an exclisive dye formulation. The ones that appear on the B9180 & 8850 or 38 series of cartridges are pigment.
Omission on my part.
Tin Ho, the use of Epson compatible pigment inks in Desktop Canon printeris what I am alluding to causing the printhead to not function properly. Whether it clogs or kogation sets in you can investigate.
I can assure you that if the R1800 or R800 is used daily or regularly, it does not clog. Used infrequently, the ink nozzle will dry out and air will enter the piezo chamber and it will appear to be a clog. If further drying occurs a real clog may form, and that is the real clog from hell. This may occur if the printer is left unused for long period of time. However, if the printer was working yesterday and it is not working today. It is not a clog. There are three levels of filtration to prevent particles from entering the printhead chamber this removes the possibility of a solid impediment. these filters, cannot stop air however.
If you get a real clog from hell, it can be gently fixed by mechanical means. How? Syringe, silicone tubing and windex and finally Image Specialists Piezo head cleaner. Use this gently. This has cleared Epsons recovered from storage and junkyards sitting in the sun for long periods of time. This method is used at your won risk and no liability falls on my part. But with the requisite skills and PATIENCE. Real clogging on an Epson has not been a problem to me for the last few years. No shooting blanks.
So to answer your question about clogging? I don't ever experience it anymore. Period. Not for canon, HP or Even Epson as long as the ground rules are followed. For Epson...use regularly....No air. No clog. Oh Yeah, for Epson as well, no poor quality sponge filled cartridges infiltrated with microbubbles. You are going to experience anguish with these.
Omission on my part.
Tin Ho, the use of Epson compatible pigment inks in Desktop Canon printeris what I am alluding to causing the printhead to not function properly. Whether it clogs or kogation sets in you can investigate.
I can assure you that if the R1800 or R800 is used daily or regularly, it does not clog. Used infrequently, the ink nozzle will dry out and air will enter the piezo chamber and it will appear to be a clog. If further drying occurs a real clog may form, and that is the real clog from hell. This may occur if the printer is left unused for long period of time. However, if the printer was working yesterday and it is not working today. It is not a clog. There are three levels of filtration to prevent particles from entering the printhead chamber this removes the possibility of a solid impediment. these filters, cannot stop air however.
If you get a real clog from hell, it can be gently fixed by mechanical means. How? Syringe, silicone tubing and windex and finally Image Specialists Piezo head cleaner. Use this gently. This has cleared Epsons recovered from storage and junkyards sitting in the sun for long periods of time. This method is used at your won risk and no liability falls on my part. But with the requisite skills and PATIENCE. Real clogging on an Epson has not been a problem to me for the last few years. No shooting blanks.
So to answer your question about clogging? I don't ever experience it anymore. Period. Not for canon, HP or Even Epson as long as the ground rules are followed. For Epson...use regularly....No air. No clog. Oh Yeah, for Epson as well, no poor quality sponge filled cartridges infiltrated with microbubbles. You are going to experience anguish with these.
You should have said so more clearly in the first place. It would have saved me (and you) some time. Thank you for clarifying it. I have a different observation though.mikling said:
I once tried to print with Epson compatible pigment based color ink on an ip4000 or maybe an mp780 I don't recall excatly now. It basically printed nothing completely. But when I switched back to correct color ink the printer printed with no problems whatsoever immediately. What I concluded at the time was the ink did not have the correct viscosity and surface tension (because it was formulated for Epson) so it lacked the bubble making ability to make bubbles for the Canon printer to print. It was that simple. It wasn't because it was clogged nor had kogation. Once the correct ink was used it printed flawlessly. That was the observation I had and lack of bubble from the ink was what I concluded. Of course my conclusion could be wrong. But it for sure wasn't a clog nor a kogation.
