I've been testing Arrow carts, and getting odd color shifts. I just got word from Alotofthings that the ink in the Arrow carts is not guarenteed to be any particular maker, as it's not always known what ink the cart manufacturer is buying..
Test results for FORMULABS INK
- Thread starter RC
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Inky,
You might want to test this profile:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=321
Using the instructions in post #2 at:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=118
I have good results with this profile on the same paper and Formulabs bulk inks from the same source as your carts.
The profile is for an 8 color printer and yours doesn't have the "photo" colors (the red and green aren't that important to your color problems - they just extend the color gamut), but it is worth a try. It may get you close enough so that the color adjustments can be used to "fine tune" the colors. I have never heard of anyone getting a 3rd party ink set to perfectly match the colors of the OEM ink set over the full range of colors without a profile.
One more thing - the carts are probably manufactured and filled in China. How sure can anyone be that they are filled with the "same" Formulabs ink that is sold in bulk? As mentioned above, the profile was generated on the bulk inks, not the prefilled carts.
You might want to test this profile:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=321
Using the instructions in post #2 at:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=118
I have good results with this profile on the same paper and Formulabs bulk inks from the same source as your carts.
The profile is for an 8 color printer and yours doesn't have the "photo" colors (the red and green aren't that important to your color problems - they just extend the color gamut), but it is worth a try. It may get you close enough so that the color adjustments can be used to "fine tune" the colors. I have never heard of anyone getting a 3rd party ink set to perfectly match the colors of the OEM ink set over the full range of colors without a profile.
One more thing - the carts are probably manufactured and filled in China. How sure can anyone be that they are filled with the "same" Formulabs ink that is sold in bulk? As mentioned above, the profile was generated on the bulk inks, not the prefilled carts.
Grandad-
Tried the profile, no dice. Very yellow results.
Thanks anyways though!
I suspect my 5000 and your 9900 have very different dither algorithm due to the additional 2 photo inks.
Overall, I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed in the Formulabs inks. Can't say whether Formulabs is good or bad vs other 3rd party inks, but it's complete inability to produce a proper dark brown, or any dark shade without going magenta, really limits thier usefulness.
I'm posting a full review in a dedicated post.
Tried the profile, no dice. Very yellow results.
Thanks anyways though!I suspect my 5000 and your 9900 have very different dither algorithm due to the additional 2 photo inks.
Overall, I have to say I'm pretty dissapointed in the Formulabs inks. Can't say whether Formulabs is good or bad vs other 3rd party inks, but it's complete inability to produce a proper dark brown, or any dark shade without going magenta, really limits thier usefulness.
I'm posting a full review in a dedicated post.
- Thread starter
- #16
To Inky:
Formulabds has many different formulas of ink for Canon printers.
The problem is that everyone sell them as BCI-6 cartridges because they are the most in demand.
By using only one ink they save in manufacturing of ink.
Formulabs does not manufacture cartridges with ink, they only sell bulk ink.
From the description you are giving I am virtually positive you did not receive the BCI-6 formula, but the BCI-5 one instead.
Formulabs BCI-6 formula prints with a reddish tint, not a green-yellow tint, which is the exact reverse of what you are getting.
I wonder if the vendor is willing to tell you which Formulabs ink numbers he is using.
The BCI-6 numbers are:
CYAN (IJC-4460
PHOTO CCYAN (IJC-4465)
MAGENTA (IJC-4424)
PHOTO MAGENTA (IJC-4428)
YELLOW (IJC-4440)
PHOTO BLACK (CPI-7900)
The BCI-5 numbers are:
CYAN (IJC-8260
PHOTO CCYAN (IJC-8265)
MAGENTA (IJC-8220)
PHOTO MAGENTA (IJC-8225)
YELLOW (IJC-8440)
PHOTO BLACK (IJC-8200)
These inks will give you completely different results. There are many other formulas manufactured by them.
The same goes for Image Specialists ink. Just because one uses their ink it does not mean you will get good prints, unless you are using the right formula.
One way you may try to get a good color balance, and this can be done with any ink is as follows:
(1) Print a photo with a good variation of shin tones, with the your printer set at Auto.
(2) In PhotoShop, create a new Color Balance Adjustment Layer.
(3) Through the Adjustment Layer, adjust the image to look like the bad print. For example, you may add (5-Cyan) (8-Magenta) (7-Blue).
(4) Once you get it to look like the printed image, you reverse the correction. For example, you now add (5-Red) (8-Green) (7-Yellow). When you print it at the same setting you printed the test, you should get a good correction.
Robert
Formulabds has many different formulas of ink for Canon printers.
The problem is that everyone sell them as BCI-6 cartridges because they are the most in demand.
By using only one ink they save in manufacturing of ink.
Formulabs does not manufacture cartridges with ink, they only sell bulk ink.
From the description you are giving I am virtually positive you did not receive the BCI-6 formula, but the BCI-5 one instead.
Formulabs BCI-6 formula prints with a reddish tint, not a green-yellow tint, which is the exact reverse of what you are getting.
I wonder if the vendor is willing to tell you which Formulabs ink numbers he is using.
The BCI-6 numbers are:
CYAN (IJC-4460
PHOTO CCYAN (IJC-4465)
MAGENTA (IJC-4424)
PHOTO MAGENTA (IJC-4428)
YELLOW (IJC-4440)
PHOTO BLACK (CPI-7900)
The BCI-5 numbers are:
CYAN (IJC-8260
PHOTO CCYAN (IJC-8265)
MAGENTA (IJC-8220)
PHOTO MAGENTA (IJC-8225)
YELLOW (IJC-8440)
PHOTO BLACK (IJC-8200)
These inks will give you completely different results. There are many other formulas manufactured by them.
The same goes for Image Specialists ink. Just because one uses their ink it does not mean you will get good prints, unless you are using the right formula.
One way you may try to get a good color balance, and this can be done with any ink is as follows:
(1) Print a photo with a good variation of shin tones, with the your printer set at Auto.
(2) In PhotoShop, create a new Color Balance Adjustment Layer.
(3) Through the Adjustment Layer, adjust the image to look like the bad print. For example, you may add (5-Cyan) (8-Magenta) (7-Blue).
(4) Once you get it to look like the printed image, you reverse the correction. For example, you now add (5-Red) (8-Green) (7-Yellow). When you print it at the same setting you printed the test, you should get a good correction.
Robert
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Robert - Good points! My experience is exactly the same as yours regarding the color shift on Formulabs bulk inks.RC said:
As you said, to be completely objective in our evaluations we have to be very careful to get confirmation from the supplier about the source and type of ink tested. It is hard to imagine that the inks that Inky and I tested are the same ink.
RC-
Not sure if I have BCI-5 or BCI-6 ink in the Alotofthings.com Arrow carts, but I don't like it. See my other post reviewing the ink for details.
To be precise, I should say the inks are both purple/mag & yellow at the same time, but in different values. Shadows go purple/mag, mids go yellow.
I'm not exactly sure which is too dense, too light, too saturated, etc. but long story short, the colors are essentially imbalanced in a non-linear manner, and incorrectable without a custom profile, and maybe just incorrectable.
Some people might not mind purple shadows or heavilly tinted images, or not notice. I printed some brunet hair where the shadowed parts were noticably purple (making her look like she had dyed her tips purple) and some skin where the shadowed side went purple(making them look like they were glowing purple from within) and it's really bad IMO.
Thanks for the info on PS color correction. Unfortunatly I already tried exactly the method, it's just too much to overcome by PS color balancing. I am an artist by trade, btw.
Eyeballing PS color balancing is not precise enough to handle non-linear problems, there are too many variables even with profiled gear. Also that the printer is not a true continuous tone device, meaning it has limitations to what it can dither when asking it to do what it thinks is a hue shift and value change at the same time, when all you really want is a value shift but the inks are off, without the result being posterization.
Another issue is that the M and CY don't seem to have the same value ~ chroma ratio, so reducing some tint also throws off value/black point, meaning more posterization and headaches.
*** To somewhat correct shadows I had to use +30 green in shadows, and that caused all kinds of other problems including large value changes which posterized black, and having to counter shift mids back becasue there is overlap and the color shifts don't occur linear to PS's "shadow, mids, highs" points.
It's just impossible to correct inks this far off by hand in PS.
Not sure if I have BCI-5 or BCI-6 ink in the Alotofthings.com Arrow carts, but I don't like it. See my other post reviewing the ink for details.
To be precise, I should say the inks are both purple/mag & yellow at the same time, but in different values. Shadows go purple/mag, mids go yellow.
I'm not exactly sure which is too dense, too light, too saturated, etc. but long story short, the colors are essentially imbalanced in a non-linear manner, and incorrectable without a custom profile, and maybe just incorrectable.
Some people might not mind purple shadows or heavilly tinted images, or not notice. I printed some brunet hair where the shadowed parts were noticably purple (making her look like she had dyed her tips purple) and some skin where the shadowed side went purple(making them look like they were glowing purple from within) and it's really bad IMO.
Thanks for the info on PS color correction. Unfortunatly I already tried exactly the method, it's just too much to overcome by PS color balancing. I am an artist by trade, btw.
Eyeballing PS color balancing is not precise enough to handle non-linear problems, there are too many variables even with profiled gear. Also that the printer is not a true continuous tone device, meaning it has limitations to what it can dither when asking it to do what it thinks is a hue shift and value change at the same time, when all you really want is a value shift but the inks are off, without the result being posterization.
Another issue is that the M and CY don't seem to have the same value ~ chroma ratio, so reducing some tint also throws off value/black point, meaning more posterization and headaches.
*** To somewhat correct shadows I had to use +30 green in shadows, and that caused all kinds of other problems including large value changes which posterized black, and having to counter shift mids back becasue there is overlap and the color shifts don't occur linear to PS's "shadow, mids, highs" points.
It's just impossible to correct inks this far off by hand in PS.
- Joined
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- Location
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- Canon i9900 (plus 5 spares)
Inky,
Here's someone who agrees with you about the purple cast when using Arrow carts:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=13858178
As stated above, this does not agree with my experience on Formulabs bulk inks.
Here's someone who agrees with you about the purple cast when using Arrow carts:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=13858178
As stated above, this does not agree with my experience on Formulabs bulk inks.
Grandad-
Actually, I don't think we're using the same ink.
You're using 8 color and I'm usign 4 color I think. They're not going to perform the same necessarially becasue the balancing may be in the other inks.
BTW, I tried the profile for your 9900, and it was nowhere close to mine.
I also wondered if the ink might be mislabeled or such. The boxes I got used to be labeled "SH-6C" for the cyan, and then relabeled BCI-3E/6C with a sticker. If that means anything, who knows?
Regardless, I'd hope that the retailer alotofthings would do some quality control by printing a random sample and looking at it with a color spectrometer or something. You never know about quality control on this type of retailer though.
I mean anyplace that would just receive a product and sell it, without checking quality seems pretty shady IMO. If these retailers aren't checking quality and actually comparing color accuracy, how can they advertise how great the ink is?
Actually, I don't think we're using the same ink.
You're using 8 color and I'm usign 4 color I think. They're not going to perform the same necessarially becasue the balancing may be in the other inks.
BTW, I tried the profile for your 9900, and it was nowhere close to mine.
I also wondered if the ink might be mislabeled or such. The boxes I got used to be labeled "SH-6C" for the cyan, and then relabeled BCI-3E/6C with a sticker. If that means anything, who knows?
Regardless, I'd hope that the retailer alotofthings would do some quality control by printing a random sample and looking at it with a color spectrometer or something. You never know about quality control on this type of retailer though.
I mean anyplace that would just receive a product and sell it, without checking quality seems pretty shady IMO. If these retailers aren't checking quality and actually comparing color accuracy, how can they advertise how great the ink is?
