Refilling without resetting Pro-100

[martincregg]

Believe me everyone... I'm going to refill when the printer shows low... not a moment after. I get the arguments as to why and will certainly heed the recommendations from people on this forum.

I was just interested in really understanding the process of when the countdown to empty starts. I think from what @The Hat says that it starts when the systems records low. That makes sense to me and should account for the variation in how much ink people choose to put in the tank.

I do wonder if I've been overfilling my cartridges. I fill pretty much to the top but at @The Hat suggests, maybe I'd be better of filling to 75%.

 

[stratman]

I only refill when a cartridge goes to empty, then I refill it and top off any others with no ink in the spongeless side. Usually Magenta or Yellow are the first to be marked empty, so these cartridges are repeatedly exposed to air and should be prime for the condition you have posted on.

Using the same CLI-8 cartridges without flushing for at least 7 or 8 years. Even stored the MP830 for 7 months with the cartridges in the print head installed in the printer and no need to flush the cartridges. Takes me about 1.5 - 2 years to go through your 4 ounce bottles of dye-based inks, ie, not a lot of printing. I would think that time exposed to air is more important than number of refills, which my cartridges evidently have experienced plenty of air exposure. Durchstich method of refilling.

Either jimbo123 and I are amazing outliers or there may be something else going on, such as non- CLI-8 cartridges are different enough in their sponge, serpentine air maze or general design to create conditions for ink flow disturbances like you have postulated. Maybe the top fill method contributes to the failure, though I cannot see how that would impact. I do not have PM,PC, LGY or GY, so cannot speak with experience on these cartridges. I do agree that what you print places different demands on the cartridges which may lead to different performance characteristics. There may be differences in the chemical components of each ink color which also may create variable performance characteristics of the cartridge. And we haven't talked about environment or other factors yet.

Regardless, I recommend those using non-CLI-8 cartridges to refill at low ink warning as a precaution based on the discussions on this forum. Personally, I can live with an occasional flush in a top fill cartridge in order to slow the steady march to ink absorber pads being marked full that is accelerated when one refills at low warning.

 

[stratman]

I was just interested in really understanding the process of when the countdown to empty starts. I think from what @The Hat says that it starts when the systems records low.

No. The chip is always on and counting. Like I said in an earlier post, experiments have been done that block the action of the prism and the cartridge ultimately still registers empty.

I do wonder if I've been overfilling my cartridges. I fill pretty much to the top but at @The Hat suggests, maybe I'd be better of filling to 75%.

If your cartridges have been leaking then you may be over-filling. If no leaking then no over-filling.

Alternately, are Canon's OEM CLI-8 or CLI-42 cartridges filled only to the 75% mark? If not, then why refill to only 75% when using OEM Canon cartridges? I know that the CLI-8 cartridges are filled greater than 75% in the spongeless side.

Another thing to consider is that refilling only to the 75% mark results in more refills over time than if refilling to a greater percentage. Each time you remove a cartridge and refill and reset it, a maintenance dump of ink from the cartridges occurs automatically. More refills means more maintenance dumps of ink which means faster accumulation of ink in the ink absorbers and the appearance of the dreaded error message that technical service is needed for resetting the ink absorber counter and change the ink absorber pads. No more printing is allowed until service is performed. Some Pro-100's allow you to reset the counter by entering Service Mode but others appear to not allow one to enter Service Mode. Now you either send the printer in for service or throw it away and get a new printer.

 

[The Hat]

Ahh Ha, @stratman is on his soak box, because he fills using the Durchstich method, and the results that he gets are definitely different than those experienced by the top filling method.

Control and Authority, Prism V Chip, the chip only approximates the ink usage and is not very accurate, and its primary role is to prevent you from refilling or inserting a cartridge wrongly.

The Prism on the other hand does nothing at all till the Red LET light can shine through it, (Reservoir side empty) that then causes the EPROM chip to start a practice countdown to empty, and the chip must respond indicating low ink, regardless of the previous amount showing.

On the other hand, if you cover the Prism with Adhesive Tape, reset the chip and don’t refill the cartridge and continue to print, this fools the EPROM chip completely and the printer will inevitably run out of ink, with disastrous results, (Scratch one print head).

Another thing to consider is that refilling only to the 75% mark results in more refills over time than if refilling to a greater percentage.

Nope, and if you read this below I did explained why there's no difference using the top fill method..

It’s better to just reset and refill the cart to 75% full and leave it at that, here again you gain nothing by overfilling the reservoir, because most refilled carts will have about the same level of ink in the sponge side as is in the reservoir side.

To finish: - it’s the EPROM chips decision whether you have run out of ink or not, but only after the prism is visible to LED light, interfering with this process will inadvertently lead to damage...

 

[martincregg]

So, the countdown starts once the prism allows light to shine through because the is no ink covering it, right?

 

[jtoolman]

The chip has been already doing that. You start up with a full chip then it drops about 3-4 levels as you print and then the LOW and then EMPTY.
The Prism is there to catch it in case the chip did not.
Most times it coincides. So as far as I know and the Hat and Mikling and others can corroborate but if say you filled half way up or all the way up. The Prism will jump in and declare the cart LOW even though just minutes prior the chip still may have been reporting that you weren't really that close to LOW yet.
Joe

 

[mikling]

The chip has been already doing that. You start up with a full chip then it drops about 3-4 levels as you print and then the LOW and then EMPTY.
The Prism is there to catch it in case the chip did not.
Most times it coincides. So as far as I know and the Hat and Mikling and others can corroborate but if say you filled half way up or all the way up. The Prism will jump in and declare the cart LOW even though just minutes prior the chip still may have been reporting that you weren't really that close to LOW yet.
Joe

Based on the testing I have done on CLI-8s, here is the situation. If I underfill a CLI-8 at around 30% less than full and also reset the chip to full, the prism does not catch the empty reservoir. Essentially the prism appears not to work if the chip ink level is above a certain amount. If you overfill, it is ok. So matching the ink full of the chip and ink level on the chip is important but the leeway is significant. Overfilling slightly is also fine.
If someone has a bad printhead. They can perform the experiment. Reset the chips and don't fill the carts and see what the printer says.
In my mind, the prism was not really primarily there to catch the empty condition. It helps. It is however primarily there to synchronize the real ink level and the CHIP ink level. When the reservoir is empty a closed loop logic is activated. When the reservoir is empty, the ink consumption tracking is more precise and will be more accurate in predicting real empty. So for example you overfilled a bit. When the chip is supposedly low, but the prism still sees ink. it will hold the chip level and wait for the ink to run out and when it does, it is synchronized. Leeway about 20%.
This is where some folks think they can fool the chip but cannot. If the prism still sees ink but the chip is much too low, then it will take the word of the chip and declare an empty and assume the prism is in error. This way the chip cannot be fooled. A lot of work in experimenting for idle hands to do, but is really of no significant use in practical terms.
Similar logic is always applied in automated systems especially when multiple sensors are used in the control system. There must be an allowance for error of a sensor and the hierarchy of control.
For example in everyday life, there is a "limp" mode for your auto or when the "check engine" light goes on. The hierarchy of control changes from normal operation.

 

[stratman]

Ahh Ha, @stratman is on his soak box, because he fills using the Durchstich method, and the results that he gets are definitely different than those experienced by the top filling method.

Ahh Ha... no. While the Durchstich method of refilling is by far a cleaner way to refill, I have no idea if that method has any different effect on the issue Mikling speaks on and did not say to the contrary. German envy, The Hat?

The Prism on the other hand does nothing at all till the Red LET light can shine through it, (Reservoir side empty) that then causes the EPROM chip to start a practice countdown to empty, and the chip must respond indicating low ink, regardless of the previous amount showing.

I do not disagree the prism may act to refine the countdown, conjecture that it is. It may also act as an early warning system for a catastrophic leak, conjecture that this is as well. We deal in hypotheses here since we have little to noactual rigorous scientific evidence otherwise, like Canon's own research data. (Unless Mikling wants to reveal his sources)

On the other hand, if you cover the Prism with Adhesive Tape, reset the chip and don’t refill the cartridge and continue to print, this fools the EPROM chip completely and the printer will inevitably run out of ink, with disastrous results,

IIRC from discussions on the forum, if you reset the cartridge, do not refill properly, and do NOT obstruct the prism then you get the same disastrous results. The chip is the control and command, not the prism.

Nope, and if you read this below I did explained why there's no difference using the top fill method..

"... because most refilled carts will have about the same level of ink in the sponge side as is in the reservoir side."

Except I am not talking about "refilled carts", which may be more about economics than function. I questioned about OEM cartridges as in "new". Are they factory OEM's filled to the 75% mark? If not, why are you refilling them so low? Regardless, if the OP's cartridges are filled greater than 75% and work without problem then what is the issue?.

I also see you did not comment on refilling low causing more refills over time resulting in more ink wastage leading to an earlier errored-out printer that is unable to be used until serviced.

 

[The Hat]

OK it’s been some time since I’ve tested out the resilience of the Canon Prism/Chip relationship and my brain might not be what it used to be, So

I have just set my iP4500 to print till it either stops or Fubars the head, here are the two ink monitoring as they stand right now, I reset the Cyan to full again but didn’t refill the cartridge, I’ll have the results in a very short time...
click to enlarge..

 

[jtoolman]

I can smell the print head burning from the USA east coast!!!!
Joe