Needle length for German Durchstich refill method

[headphonesman]

I understand all of Tin Ho`s explanations of the Americam Method and I am sure they do achieve the objective of refilling the resevoir chamber.
My opinion is that this method is less easy and efficient than the German Method for the following reasons:-

The main reason of the German method was to get ink easily into the resevoir without the need to use an entry point that had to be unsealed and sealed each time a cart was refilled, i.e using an entry point that could be left open without compromising the proper cart operation.

In the American method a hole is made in the top of the cart , on the side of the partion where the labyrynth is , and for that reason must be sealed afterwards to keep the correct air balance for the cart to avoid leaking excessively. You do not need to seal the hole with the German method, sealing holes was one of the things I wanted to get away from with the "Normal method) refill hole sealed with screw/glue/etc.
This applies to "hole in the top", which ever side of the sponge/resevoir partition you go .

The majority of the ink will "drop" through to the empty chamber but some will go into the sponge and perhaps set up extra pressure if carried out too quickly, so must be done at a much slower pace.
Even the German method must be done carefully to avoid the problem, but it is less likely as 100% of the ink is definitely going in the empty compartment.

These are criticisms are being very picky , if I did not have my sharp 2 inch needles I would definitely try it and I recommend you do , to see how you get on.

I will admit that traversing from one side of a cart to the other , through the sponge , finding the reservoir hole with a sharp needle, can be a bit hit or miss....(at times.)....with a blunt needle it is much worse............but I prefer it rather than unsealing and resealing a hole.

 

[jackson]

There is an alternative German method that a 1.5" needle will be just long enough. I used a metal pin to punch a hole at the top of the cartridge rather than the rear lower corner of the main ink chamber. This is a spot where you can push the needle in and push it further in between the sponge and the plastic between the main chamber and the reservoir chamber. The needle will be right at the hole between the two ink chambers at the bottom of the cartridge. Just flip the cartridge 90 degrees to have the main chamber on the top and the reservoir chamber at the bottom. Ink will flow into the reservoir chamber when you inject ink this way. By doing it this way you do not even punch a hole through the sponge. You won't need a sharp needle. A blunt one will do still. I think this should be called American Method and it works better. You can tape the hole after refilling is done.

What's the difference between injecting the ink from the sponge side into the reservoir and injecting it straight into the reservoir?
Is it something to do with air pressure?

 

[Tin Ho]

Headphonesman, You can leave the hole unsealed, although I prefer to tape it over. It is not going to be critical if the tape makes an air tight seal or not. If you use a lot of ink, you will refill quite frequently. Then ink drying through this hole is not going to be an issue. The original vent is too at the top (center) of the cartridge. You only created another vent near the divider. This additional vent will not cause any interruption to the ink flow in anyw way. Many aftermarket compatible cartridges leave the top wide open. That's a huge vent there and they all work fine.

In terms of getting ink into the reservoir chamber, the authentic German method is not much different from the American method. Every drop of ink entering the reservoir tank will displace equal volume of air out of it and this air needs to somehow find a route to escape from the cartridge. This is why you need to inject ink slowly because the air displaced needs to travel trough the sponge and find a vent to escape from the cartridge. Initially it may increase the pressure in the sponged chamber but the vent will quickly release the pressure to normal. Try it and you will see it is not any more difficult at all. But the American method allows you to use a blunt needle only 1.5 inch long. This is why I experimented this method because I had 1.5 inch blunt needle on hand. It turned out that it works very well. And I no longer need to pierce through the sponge. That was not too easy for me.

Jackson, the differences are: you can use a shorter needle (1.5 inch long) and it can be a blunt needle. The 2nd difference is that you do not need to pierce through the sponge in the American method. You insert the needle along the plastic divider. The sponge will not get in the way and will no longer be damaged.

So far I only described how to inject ink in this American method. How about ink in the sponge? You do want to saturate the sponge to some extend. All OEM cartridges when new all contain quite some ink in the sponge. So after filling up the reservoir chamber I flip the cartridge back to the horizontal orientation. The needle now is pointing down at the bottom of the cartridge. I just continue to inject ink and watch the ink absorbed by the sponge. I continue until about 3/4 of the entire sponge is full of ink leaving the top quarter empty still. The cartridge should weigh about 1.1 oz by then. It really works. I think it is actually easier than the original German method. I have refilled my CLI-8 cartridges on my pro9000 this way a few times.

 

[Servo]

Tin Ho

Sounds interesting, can you do some piccies of this refilling method please.

 

[jackson]

Jackson, the differences are: you can use a shorter needle (1.5 inch long) and it can be a blunt needle. The 2nd difference is that you do not need to pierce through the sponge in the American method. You insert the needle along the plastic divider. The sponge will not get in the way and will no longer be damaged.

My question was why inject at all on the sponge side and thence to the reservoir - when you can move the injection site a millimeter to the other side of the barrier and into the empty reservoir.

 

[headphonesman]

Jackson, the differences are: you can use a shorter needle (1.5 inch long) and it can be a blunt needle. The 2nd difference is that you do not need to pierce through the sponge in the American method. You insert the needle along the plastic divider. The sponge will not get in the way and will no longer be damaged.

My question was why inject at all on the sponge side and thence to the reservoir - when you can move the injection site a millimeter to the other side of the barrier and into the empty reservoir.

If you move the injection site to the reservoir top you are back to the "normal " popular / widely used method. This method is fine but you must reseal the hole securely afterwards or the ink will flow out the sponge exit port far too quickly.before it even reaches the machine.

With the American method you can use a blunt short needle and you do not need to go thru the sponge (or re-seal the hole ?)
With the German method you have to use a long sharp needle to traverse the sponge and you do not need to seal the hole.
With both methods you can also prime the sponge with ink if you wish (you cannot with the "normal" method ).

 

[binkie]

With the American method you can use a blunt short needle and you do not need to go thru the sponge (or re-seal the hole ?)
With the German method you have to use a long sharp needle to traverse the sponge and you do not need to seal the hole.
With both methods you can also prime the sponge with ink if you wish (you cannot with the "normal" method ).

Why the question mark after "or re-seal the hole"? Are you unsure about that statement. Now, you really have me confused. Of course, that's normally not hard to do.

Also, how much intensive testing has been done with this "American" method? I gather it has been tried on only a relatively small number of cartridges.

Binkie

 

[headphonesman]

[Why the question mark after "or re-seal the hole"? Are you unsure about that statement. Now, you really have me confused. Of course, that's normally not hard to do.

Also, how much intensive testing has been done with this "American" method? I gather it has been tried on only a relatively small number of cartridges.

Binkie

Yes I am unsure as I have not personally tried the American method , I was referring to Tin Ho`s statement earlier up the thread

Headphonesman, You can leave the hole unsealed, although I prefer to tape it over. It is not going to be critical if the tape makes an air tight seal or not.

I`m sure he`s probably right , provided the hole is no bigger than the needle diameter. just anyone trying this method should exercise caution and monitor until sure there isn`t a problem,.
My main purpose in the reply to Jackson was to explain the circumstances around the use of the 3 methods and the reasons for them, all have their merits and drawbacks , which is best to use will be dictated by the user`s equipment , dexterity and need , (or not), for speed.
The American method is quite a new variation on the German method , with the difficulty being experienced in getting hold of long sharp needles it may yet obtain a wider acceptance.

 

[jackson]

I tried this method with an old Canon cart - fortunately I only injected water.
As soon as I pressed the plunger on the syringe, water (mixing with residual ink in the sponge) started leaking out of the vent.
No matter how slowly I injected, the water all went into the sponge - nothing in the reservoir.

 

[Tin Ho]

Headphonesman, you do not need to seal the hole. It is not any different from the German method that the hole is not sealed. The difference is only in the location of the hole. Remember the sponged chamber already has a vent at the top. An additional hole will not increase or reduce the function of the original vent. I tape over mine because I do not want ink to dry up through this additional hole. This is really the same for the German method. You can leave it open or cover it up to prevent excessive ink drying.

Jackson, When I tried the German method before I had the same problem too. Remember, every drop of ink injected into the cartridge displaces equal volume of air out of the cartridge. This air needs to escape from the cartridge through any existing vent. I had exactly the same problem you just experienced that residue ink in the sponge was forced out of the vent because the displaced air needed to come out. It forced ink to come out of the vent because the residue ink was getting in the way. This will happen to the German method too. You need to practice and figure out how to slowly inject ink and let the displaced air to escape slowly without forcing ink to come out of the vent. Try to inject a few drops of ink then withdraw the plunger of the syringe a little to suck the displaced air out. Then inject more ink. Just repeat until the reservoir chamber is full. When air is sucked into the syringe it goes to the top of the syringe. When you push the plunger again the air will not be injected back into the cartridge.

I think whoever masters the German method can do this American method without problems.

Binkie, you are right I think I may be the only person who uses this American method. But it is really not much different from the German method. It does give you the advantage that you can use a shorter blunt needle which is easier to get. And you do not need to pierce through the sponge. It is easier to do. Other than these two both methods are really the same.