Dye or Pigment Ink for 3880 Question

[W. Fisher]

You are right that some cannot see the black differential issue, but I do!

What bothers me more about it is that the i1 PhotoPro2 goes a bit batty when I hit Step 21 (Blackest step on my 21 step target) and the L values sometime reverse. Example: L* drops 20, 15, 10 and then back up to maybe 12 on the last step of 21 (Instead of maybe going to 9 where it should be instead of 12.). I pull the black back in the quad file and it gets better so BK is a gloss differential matter that even the x-rite spectrometer gets upset over.

Funny how you can pull the BK black back in the quad file and it gets even blacker according to the i1, and spraying down more black and it gets lighter (although now more Matte looking too.). I used to think "More is Better" for black, but when it reverses and gets lighter, that ain't good.

Yes. There apparently are indeed ink addicts around here!

Will.

 

[The Hat]

@W. Fisher, I could well understand your answer if you had two 3880, so it still doesn’t make sense.

Some say I waste my Pro 1 on just doing graphic printing, yes same league but a different ball game..

 

[W. Fisher]

The Hat, I do have more than the two 3880's. I have 6 printers in total (2 Canons, 3 Epsons, 1 Brother.). It's almost a playground, but still smaller than Jose R's printer playground. My paper stash is even worse for all the roll boxes too.

Will.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

'more is better' - not really - if you don't create already ink puddles on your printouts you get into the saturation reversal situation - more ink creates less color saturation - the ink/ color saturation curve drops behind a maximum

 

[The Hat]

The Hat, I do have more than the two 3880's. I have 6 printers in total (2 Canons, 3 Epsons, 1 Brother.). It's almost a playground, but still smaller than Jose R's printer playground. My paper stash is even worse for all the roll boxes too.
Will.

Then it makes perfect sense..
Congratulations you get the cigar..

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

What bothers me more about it is that the i1 PhotoPro2 goes a bit batty when I hit Step 21 (Blackest step on my 21 step target) and the L values sometime reverse. Example: L* drops 20, 15, 10 and then back up to maybe 12 on the last step of 21

O.k., there is something else to consider - you need to consider the following on your gray scale step chart - your grays are scaled 5% apart - and even when they are gray they might be mixed with other colors - some light gray and a mix of (L)M and (L)C making up as well gray. And this applies as well to the 5% gray - a mix of some black and C and M , and only step 21 - black - is solely printed with the pure black ink, and that black does not print as black as the 5% spot. I know that effect from a special practice - it has to do with waste ink which I re-use to a degree in another printer to print the daily garbage, but please don't tell anybody.....profiling a paper with such a black ink has the same effect - black is lighter than 5% 'black'. And how would I overcome that funny situation - I'm using Qimage and raise the black level of the images for printing to those 5%, so it will print with the darkest available black tone. Photo black pigment inks are not as black as dye blacks on most papers

 

[martin0reg]

I maybe be missing something here, but why would anybody want to run such a great printer on Dye inks, it just doesn’t make any sense. ?

The experts have already answered in detail.
Printing and refilling and tinkering with a handful of A4 dye printers, recently added by pro3880, i have to realize that the only advantage of pigment is longevity. The gloss of a high quality glossy paper comes out really flawless only with dye ink.... and even on matte paper there could be sometimes issues regarding deep blacks and the smoothness of the prints... which happens to me with ultrachrome on some, not the cheapest, matte papers. But with dye almost all papers seems to print out as good as it gets...

 

[W. Fisher]

From my mixed Claria C7 inkset, the blackest Step 21 out of the printer reads L=11.486 a= -0.057 and b= -2.598.

The "airbrush sprayed" black ink (on the same RR Metallic paper) reads L=3.569 a= 0.443 and b= -3.917

Almost 8 points blacker L* value with an airbrush applied spot of same Noritsu 102 Black (Claria) than from the printer?

Plus, the airbrushed sprayed black is as glossy as it can be! I can see the reflection of the i1 head in it just sitting on the sprayed metallic paper - it's much like a mirror. On the printer's blackest square, I can't even see a reflection due to the dullness/matte look of the printer's applied black. Odd.

I think I might pull the Black back even more in the *.quad file and see where it leads. Might still be applying too much black and giving me a higher L* value and dullness.

Less is more...maybe.

Will.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

you would need RIP software to control the ink density of every channel individually and to test for the highest ink saturation reasonable, and in combination with each other for mixed colors. It depends as well on the paper, on the coating how much ink it can take, on one type of paper you may reach the point of color saturation reversal, but not on another paper but instead your ink is just running off the surface. And, as stated - I see that effect frequently - black pigment inks are not always darker than a mixture of C and M and black together. Just watch how much marketing fuzz Epson is making about the new black ink in the Surecolor P600/800 pigment ink set - the blackest black ever..............There are no 3rd party substitute inks on the market yet - by Lyson etc but due every month as they claim. I ordered a Epson 90ml photo black cartridge for testing, o.k. - the black is somewhat blacker - more visible on matte paper - barely visible on good glossy paper, only in direct comparison with previous printouts . I'll probably measure some profiles later, but this ink is not that much better that I would pay 45€ for 90ml for it regularly. I'll wait for some Lyson etc ink to test as well. When it comes to the black of the Fujilfim DL dye inks which I'm using at this time only for A4 in a R265, the L of that black is running between 5 and 9 on various papers.

 

[martin0reg]

... I ordered a Epson 90ml photo black cartridge for testing, o.k. - the black is somewhat blacker - more visible on matte paper - barely visible on good glossy paper, only in direct comparison with previous printouts ...

I am a bit confused ... actually the improved PK should take effect more on glossy..
To get a deep black on matte paper I definitely have to choose MK, with PK on matte the blacks are dark grey.
So what you tried seems to be the compromise to avoid the switch to MK, right?
And how deep are the blacks on matte if you compare with MK?

.. When it comes to the black of the Fujilfim DL dye inks which I'm using at this time only for A4 in a R265, the L of that black is running between 5 and 9 on various papers.

Sounds good... are these values similar or better if compared to pigment inks / other dye inks?