CLI-526 TopFill

[Tudor]

Lin, I hope you don't mind if I say this, but when refilling the opaque cartridges you can not see the sponge. Or the ink chamber.

Can you repeat the cli-8 experiment, but this time with a freshly purged and dried cartridge? You know, one that didn't have a few months to dry? And, please, cover the cartridge with some opaque tape, so you can't see inside. I bet you will see a difference in the way ink was absorbed in the sponge...
Also, could it be possible that the sponges in cli-8s are different than the sponges in cli-526s? And I'm not only talking about size. The grooves in the body certainly are different...

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

Edit: Oops. Ignore this message.

Tudor, Lin is correct. His point is that if you block the vent and the exit port, you cannot saturate the sponge because there is nowhere for the air to go. This is true even if the sponge is damp. It's actually the principle behind Mikling's original method for top filling. In that method, you fill the ink chamber partially and let ink soak into the sponge, as in the third figure. Then you seal the vent (so the sponge will not fill further) and fill the ink chamber.

 

[The Hat]

Listen guys the fact that I found refilling to be totally different for the reasons I described above earlier,
so it would be best to leave it there and agree to disagree because we wont get any further with the discussion,
were just going round in circles..

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

The Hat, I'm not sure who's arguing what. Just pointing out that Lin is correct when he says that blocking the vent prevents filling the sponge. I said no more, and no less.

Some of his other ideas are suspect, however. For one thing, it's generally considered hard to fill a dry sponge (it even says so in a Canon patent).



Edited. The following text removed because it doesn't apply (wrong post):
Second, he uses a hopelessly large screw to extract the ball. I don't know how he does that without damaging the cartridge. Oh, wait. Maybe he does damage the cartridge. That's why he has to seal it with glue.

 

[Tudor]

Tudor, Lin is correct. His point is that if you block the vent and the exit port, you cannot saturate the sponge because there is nowhere for the air to go. This is true even if the sponge is damp. It's actually the principle behind Mikling's original method for top filling. In that method, you fill the ink chamber partially and let ink soak into the sponge, as in the third figure. Then you seal the vent (so the sponge will not fill further) and fill the ink chamber.

And who wanted to fill the sponge by keeping both vent and exit port closed? He came up with that by himself and then proved that it's not a good idea.

see http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=62730#p62730

He states that:

Air is needed to go into the ink chamber for the exchange of air and ink to be absorb by the sponge. Even by closing the refill hole with plug at point B as you mentioned #8 and thereafter point C removing of the clay, you are not allowing the exchanging of air and ink process to take place.

So if the top fill hole is plugged and vent opened the sponge doesn't absorb ink... Does that sound right to you? How come the german refilling method works? How does the cartridge work when it's in the printer with the top fill hole closed? Magic?

I'll do a video with a cli-8 refilled using these two steps (like in the original post):
1. exit port closed, vent closed, top fill hole opened and ink chamber full
2. exit port closed, vent opened and top fill hole plugged





Maybe it will bring some light into this discussion.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

And who wanted to fill the sponge by keeping both vent and exit port closed? He came up with that by himself and then proved that it's not a good idea.

I honestly don't know quite what he is trying to say, and don't really care. I am just saying that what he stated in this post is clear and correct. It doesn't mean that I endorse whatever refill method he is advocating.

I just looked again, and your refill instructions look excellent to me. I don't think there is any danger of overfilling if you do it that way, especially if you (1) check for dripping and (2) the printer uses ink immediately afterward to purge the head. Your instructions differ in details but are substantially rather similar to Mikling's.

I must say, though, the size of the screw that you used to extract the ball leaves little room for error. Personally I would make a pilot hole with a pin, and use a much smaller, unheated screw eye for the extraction.

 

[Tudor]

I admit, my screw is big, but I have precision!

Check out this larger versions of the photos:

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/8608/526acaremoveball.jpg
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1510/526acbremoveball.jpg

No damage to the hole.

Some of his other ideas are suspect, however. First, it's generally considered hard to fill a dry sponge (it even says so in a Canon patent). Second, he uses a hopelessly large screw to extract the ball. I don't know how he does that without damaging the cartridge. Oh, wait. Maybe he does damage the cartridge. That's why he has to seal it with glue.

To whom are you referring to?

 

[lin]

And who wanted to fill the sponge by keeping both vent and exit port closed? He came up with that by himself and then proved that it's not a good idea.

see http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=62730#p62730
He states that:

Air is needed to go into the ink chamber for the exchange of air and ink to be absorb by the sponge. Even by closing the refill hole with plug at point B as you mentioned #8 and thereafter point C removing of the clay, you are not allowing the exchanging of air and ink process to take place.

Tudor, You totally misunderstand. I didn't said to refill with the vent/air inlet hole closed or covered.

I wrote at post #7, because I saw with your original picture that has not been edited with vent/air inlet hole closed with clay on the storage clip. And I thought you were refilling the cartridge on a storage clip with the both vent and exit port closed.

Which is why I asked you NOT to put the clay over the vent hole So Soon at post #7. But to allow couple of ml to be absorb by the sponge during refilling. And THEN cover the vent hole. The covering of the vent hole is only after your sponge had absorbed a couple of ml which by now should have reaches about 75%, 80% or 85% etc of ink in the sponge, to avoid oversaturating or overfilling the sponge chamber as you continue to refill ink in the ink chamber.

Note, when I saw your original post, with the vent hole closed with clay, I knew what you wanted to avoid overfilling. But what I am saying is NOT to put the clay so soon at post #7.

Then your reply post #8 you were saying putting clay is to

The idea was to not overfill the sponge. If you read the writing on the pictures you will find these steps:
a. Close the vent with the clay;
b. Unplug the refill hole (if plugged), fill the ink chamber and plug it;

c. Remove the clay and wait 2 minutes for the sponge to absorb as much ink as it needs. You can wait longer, but 2 minutes should be enough.

At post #9, I replied that I know you cover the vent hole is not to avoid overfill the sponge. But I explain why at post #7， why I saId you shouldn't refill with the vent/air inlet hole hole closed So Soon. By writting at post #9, Air is needed to go into the ink chamber for the exchange of air and ink to be absorb by the sponge. And telling you that your step, B and C.

Even by closing the refill hole with plug at point B as you mentioned #8 and thereafter point C removing of the clay, you are not allowing the exchanging of air and ink process to take place.
. By this statement I was pointing out to you that your point from a to b. You not allowing in any stages for the air and ink exchange to take place for the sponge to absorb during refilling. Now when you go to point C, with your plug at the refill hole and clay remove, your cartridge that is on storage clip sit for 2 minutes or more, the ink is barely going to the sponge.

 

[lin]

The Hat, I'm not sure who's arguing what. Just pointing out that Lin is correct when he says that blocking the vent prevents filling the sponge. I said no more, and no less.

Some of his other ideas are suspect, however. First, it's generally considered hard to fill a dry sponge (it even says so in a Canon patent). Second, he uses a hopelessly large screw to extract the ball. I don't know how he does that without damaging the cartridge. Oh, wait. Maybe he does damage the cartridge. That's why he has to seal it with glue.

What other ideas I had? I had no other ideas.

And I didn't used large screw to extract the ball， If you were referring to the cartridge in my picture at post #20, where there was glue next beside the refill hole where the ball had been removed, that hole was made several years ago (can't remember was it in 2006 or 2007 or much earlier on) where I used a hot pin to make to make a 2mm or 2.5 refill hole. Because back in those days, there was no plug for me here, I had to use hot glue to seal refill hole.

But years later, there were plug around and seller offering plugs in their refill kit, so I then had plug for me to seal refill hole. So I experiment removing the ball to refill as Lilla had mentioned since now I had seal plug. So naturally, I had to seal that small refill hole that I had made earlier on with hot glue otherwise there will be 2 holes at the top above the ink chamber after I had removed the ball.

Note: in my picture at post #20, where I used hot glue to seal vent/air inlet hole in my demo, was because hot glue was one that could really seal air tight to eliminate any chances of air getting into the vent hole for my demo purposes.

 

[Tudor]

lin, do you have any cli-8s left that are really dry, like the one you used for the experiment? I need to know the weight of a really dry cli-8. It should not be modified (no hot glue added). Thank you!

I think we should leave things as they are, as we cannot reach a consensus. I will refill a cli-8 as in my original post and see what happens. And film it. And post it here.