Anyone know the dilution ratio of Epson PK to LK and LLK blacks?

[W. Fisher]

Thanks for these insights in profiling and software.
But how does the epson paper come out of the 3880 if you let the driver / menu manage the colors? In other words how does the custom made ink set print out without custom profile?
I know you need a profile with self diluted 3rd party ink, but I'm curious how far away are the colors of this ink set from the OEM ink set?

Don't think I ever used "Let printer manage color." I've always profiled no matter the ink 'cause some papers are weird in color - and why I dropped the K7 B&W endeavor too because of lack of tint control.

Ran out of Epson paper and loaded the cheap Costco Kirkland Gloss. Print below has "Let printer manage colors" and one on right was with a profile set from BasICColor Catch 5.

"Printer manages color" is cold and contrasty to me, where the BasICColor seems a bit better. Not as good as the Epson, but ColorTink Pro 3 says the profiled color gamut printed on the Costco paper is lower than the Epson Glossy paper too. Another fact was the BasICColor Catch 5 profile loaded an extra 20% more ink too where the Epson "Printer manages colors" default does not. Might explain the weaker color - maybe.

W.F

 

[martin0reg]

To me this seems to be a decent result - for a self diluted ink set. Sometimes I had much worse output with self diluted B&W ink sets... if the contrast and brightness, colors and tonality don't look really off, the colormunki can even out the remainig deviation. The better the set matches the OEM set, the easier and better the profiling can be, so I think.

 

[W. Fisher]

To me this seems to be a decent result - for a self diluted ink set. Sometimes I had much worse output with self diluted B&W ink sets... if the contrast and brightness, colors and tonality don't look really off, the colormunki can even out the remaining deviation. The better the set matches the OEM set, the easier and better the profiling can be, so I think.

Yeah, I suppose the Colormunki Photo could pull off the profile, but I really wasn't happy with the iStudio and the profile combo it made. Maybe they tweaked the newer CM Photo head a bit better for iStudio, but don't know. Results of iStudio seemed too cold for my taste and contrasty. I was surprised the BasICColor was so different even with the same x-rite i1 PhotoPro 2 spectrometer head. Guess the softwares aren't in agreement, but then again even sundry photo editors can't come to agreement on Kelvin or the tints with their eyedropper tools either.

Oh, I also tried to do an Optmization of the iStudio and Colormunki Photo to see if it would improve to that of the BasICColor Catch 5. However, Colorthink Pro 3 showed an even smaller color gamut volume number on the newer optimized one, and the 3D image of that optimized profile looked pitted in some spots verses the first one. Maybe they'll come out with iStudio version 1.2.0 soon.

Anyhoo, mailman came and dropped me off 5 100ml bottles of the BCH Clear Dye ink (They sure ship fast for $3.95!). Time to go mixing up a refill set.

W.F.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm not sure yet to understand why profiles by your different software packages vary so much, or is it something else like settings how profiles are activated (or not) - via Qimage you apparently use - or the printer driver 'Printer manages colors' or different driver settings printing the patch sheets or other not so obvious settings. I don't think those differences in your sample image above is caused by instrument variations at all.
Some evaluation of the ColorMunki optimization step was discussed here some time ago,
https://www.printerknowledge.com/th...oes-it-make-it-better.10449/page-2#post-87519
This is no different in the current i1Profiler software, I won't believe that the optimization step would be able to correct such a strong color cast if it is there in the base profile.

 

[martin0reg]

I'm anything but a profiling expert, using my colormunki with the old x-rite photo software.
But looking at your samples in post #9 (*) the main difference to my eyes is brightness. If you make an image daker, the saturation may look stronger, e.g. visible in the reds...
So could it be any ruler for brightness in the one or the other software, what makes the results more or less saturated?

PS: not to mix up with the samples in post #11, which compare no profile/epson driver vs profile! Or don't they?

 

[W. Fisher]

I'm anything but a profiling expert, using my colormunki with the old x-rite photo software.
But looking at your samples in post #9 (*) the main difference to my eyes is brightness. If you make an image daker, the saturation may look stronger, e.g. visible in the reds...
So could it be any ruler for brightness in the one or the other software, what makes the results more or less saturated?

PS: not to mix up with the samples in post #11, which compare no profile/epson driver vs profile! Or don't they?

Regarding #11, I checked when selected "The printer/driver manages color" in QImage the Epson properties shows ICM turned off, but my selected ink load of +20% remained.


As to the ink percentage load in the Epson driver, I mentioned I could see when I scan the BasICColor charts if the ink load seemed weak or perhaps needed "more flavoring" as the printed color was weak or too strong verses the chart's referenced screen image. If weak, I turned the ink load up to 20%. I also tried 35% more ink thinking "More ink is even better!" but it went the other way!

In the image below, I tried Epson Luster with a 0% ink load, a 20%, and 35% more ink in the Epson driver setup. Colorthink Pro 3 says the color volume gamut had the most colors when set to a 20% load, and then went down at 35% if you look at the bottom number for each profile made.

I guess I could try a 15%, 20%, and 25% ink load and see how the color volume gamut changes and how it affects my test image...


I remember back in film days I sent the same photo to 4-5 different photo labs and all used Kodak's Control Strips for setting their processing up. However, none of the prints from the same negative looked alike! It became Take your pick. I think the same applies today too. This inkjet software stuff ain't in agreement and still seems to be "Take your pick." I watched one of x-rite's webinars where the guy said "No two monitors are alike even when calibrated" which sort of shocked me, but given the screen uneveness when read I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. Guess it's why pay pay thousands more for the Eizos (Yeah, I own one of those CG 4K things too!).

W.F.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I rather would set the printer ICC to off in Qimage, and ICC off in the driver as well but I'm lost beyond that.
Yes, there is a point of saturation reversal - more ink would give you less saturation, you could control each ink channel individually with a RIP to optimize that, and as well the total saturation of mixed colors.

 

[W. Fisher]

I rather would set the printer ICC to off in Qimage, and ICC off in the driver as well but I'm lost beyond that.
Yes, there is a point of saturation reversal - more ink would give you less saturation, you could control each ink channel individually with a RIP to optimize that, and as well the total saturation of mixed colors.

Yes, it's been OFF in both Qimage and the Epson driver both.

I'm running an ink load on Epson Glossy now at 15%, 20%, and 25% to see what happens to the color volume, and see if I can hone it in better. I'll wait a few hours for them to dry before scanning.

Crikey! I just looked and I have 488 different ICC/ICM profiles made in the Windows color folder. Too many paper types.

W.F.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Regarding #11, I checked when selected "The printer/driver manages color" in QImage the Epson properties shows ICM turned off

Yes, it's been OFF in both Qimage and the Epson driver both.

I'm still lost........

488 profiles - that's already something - I don't dare to check my directories - you may watch your spectro for signs of overload.......

 

[W. Fisher]

I'm still lost........

488 profiles - that's already something - I don't dare to check my directories - you may watch your spectro for signs of overload.......

Go have a look see at how many you've got. I was shocked!

Three more will be added today too.

W.F. (<-- Mad printing fool!)