Workaround to print with PK Photo Black on Epson 3800 3880 with Leaking Black ink problem

[wannaby]

Hello… I recently discovered your informative forum while researching a problem with my “vintage” Epson Stylus Pro 3800 printer and thought it was time to join.

Following forum guidelines, I’ll try to be forthcoming, while hopefully not providing unnecessary information. If the background info it too much to read, try skipping down to the WORKAROUND section.

BACKGROUND:
I have two Epson Stylus Pro 3800 printers. One is dedicated to Matte/MK-only and a second for Photo/PK-only. I had to do this because years ago, the first one leaked Black ink into the Yellow during PK printing. I rescued the second printer from a friend who was going to toss it. His did not have the Yellow/Black contamination problem, so I set it up as my 3800-PK printer. With this setup, I do not trigger the PK-MK black ink switch. I have only used OEM K3 inks.

A few weeks ago, the 3800-PK printer started showing Black contamination in the Yellow dashes of a Manual nozzle check. This wasn't related to any cleaning activities and I didn't trigger any PK/MK Black ink switch. The contamination went away a few days later all by itself.

To clear a few missing dashes, I ran an Auto Nozzle Check which ended in an error (of unknown #). A Manual Nozzle check showed loads of missing dashes. On a test print, the printer dripped 1/2” black lines along the printhead path. Thinking it was a clog, I tried the Windex method to clean the capping station, wiper blade and under the printheads. Next day Nozzle check was good, and I now think it was air in the lines and not really clogs. BTW, I'm now using the Pharmacist’s solution instead of Windex. Thanks, Pharmacist. As for the yellow contamination, it comes and goes, but I can't see a direct cause and effect. However, sometimes after printing or cleaning, the PK and Yellow nozzle checks both show matching missing dashes or contamination.

CURRENT STATUS:
At the moment, nozzle checks are good with only two dashes missing. However, the yellow is contaminated again and hasn't gone away… even after printing blocks of FFFF00 to flush the yellow printhead.

However, the big eye-opener was discovering that my “80%” full PK cart in 3800-PK weighs only 3.3 oz… meaning it’s actually about 18% full. Three months ago, I installed a new OEM PK cart and printed the equivalent of seven (color and B&W) 15x20” prints. Over these three months, inkcount has increased by 38ml, but total percentage of ink remaining went down by 200%, factoring in that PK went down from 100% to 18%.

Therefore, I now believe the problem is with the valve, seat or seal. While I have not done any Matte printing on the 3800-PK, I noticed the MK ink status dropped from 22% to 17% in the last three months. I have read that the 3800 performs maintenance by auto switching black ink to flush the “other” (in this case MK) ink every so often. I suspect this may be triggering the valve and causing the leak.

WORKAROUND:
I am not handy enough to replace the ink supply system and/or dampers. However, I read someone’s clever idea to print on Photo paper by “fooling” the printer to print with PK ink filled into the MK/Matte cartridge (i.e. cart on the far left side).

I am considering buying Cone’s pigment inks from inkjetmall based on their reputation and built-in chip-resetting, unless persuaded otherwise. My plan would be to only print on Photo paper with printer 3800-PK, although I believe it’s OK to print PK ink on Matte paper (just not the other way around).

This is how the process would work.
1. Fill refillable MK cart with PK ink, and prime cart per instructions.
2. Put a chip from the OEM MK cart onto the refillable MK cart (chip reset per instructions)
3. *edited* When printing, in the Printer Setup, choose a Matte (not Photo) Media Type e.g. Velvet Fine Art
4. *added* Insert Photo paper into the printer
5. For Color Management… well…see Q2 below

So my questions are:
Q1. From your experience, would it be OK to mix OEM K3 inks with Cone inks? I’d eventually move to all Cone inks if they work well.
Q2. For Color Management… which Printer Profile should I choose, Photo or Matte (e.g. PLPP, EMP)
Q3. Does the 3800 printer output ink differently when printing with the driver set to Matte vs. Photo Printer, and if so will that negatively affect the prints?
Q4. Can anyone share their experience on how printing with Epson’s Advanced B&W Photo compares when using OEM black inks vs. Cone’s black inks?
Q5. If I fill the real PK cartridge with something like Piezoflush, won't it be problematic when the printer does it's own maintenance to switch every so often? Or will the switch back to MK completely rid the lines of the Piezoflush.I wouldn't think so, but that's just my guess.

Thanks in advance for sticking through the long post.

---
*edited* I updated steps 4 and 5 in my workaround.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

parameters of the driver/firmware in regard to specific settings - ink output, color balance , paper selection are not published, they are adjusted such that you get the best output with Epson inks on Epson papers. You need to run your own tests for all other combinations - 3rd party inks and papers, and you'll find interesting details - e.g. that a matte paper setting may give you a wider gamut on the same paper than selecting a glossy paper type, with a photo glossy ink in the matte cartridge which I saw on some printers. The total amount of ink may be different, some papers have a lower ink limit than other papers - there is no general rule for all that - you need to test and compare.
I tested quite a lot of inks and papers about a year ago - you can measure gamut and black level of various inks but a judgement of gloss, gloss differential, bronzing is a matter of your personal judgement, and any ink/paper combination looks somewhat different. So don't expect a miracle by the ConecolorPro inks - they are pretty good and expensive, but there are others pretty close to them.

 

[jtoolman]

One little detail here.
If you have PK ink in a MK cart so you Fool the printer to print on Photo Paper while still printing with the MK cart filled with PK ink.
Hope I have this correct!
You will not be able to choose ANY photo papers ( shiny PK using papers ) as those choices will be grayed out.
I tried this many years ago as I also had the same double 3800 setup!
Joe

 

[martin0reg]

...
As for the yellow contamination, it comes and goes, but I can't see a direct cause and effect. However, sometimes after printing or cleaning, the PK and Yellow nozzle checks both show matching missing dashes or contamination.
....
However, the big eye-opener was discovering that my “80%” full PK cart in 3800-PK weighs only 3.3 oz…
Therefore, I now believe the problem is with the valve, seat or seal. While I have not done any Matte printing on the 3800-PK, I noticed the MK ink status dropped from 22% to 17% in the last three months. I have read that the 3800 performs maintenance by auto switching black ink to flush the “other” (in this case MK) ink every so often. I suspect this may be triggering the valve and causing the leak.

WORKAROUND:
I am not handy enough to replace the ink supply system and/or dampers. However, I read someone’s clever idea to print on Photo paper by “fooling” the printer to print with PK ink filled into the MK/Matte cartridge (i.e. cart on the far left side).
....

Q3. Does the 3800 printer output ink differently when printing with the driver set to Matte vs. Photo Printer, and if so will that negatively affect the prints?
...

Probably I'm missing something - let me start with the last point:
The 3800 (like similar epsons with two blacks) prints either with PK exclusively or with MK exclusively. So yes the printer output with hook on "glossy" will be different from the output with hook on "matte"... whatever type of paper you put in the tray. For example print on matte with hook on glossy paper means PK on matte paper. So deepest blacks will be missing... The other way around is not recommended because MK on glossy will rub off.

Now for the cross contamination and the leaking PK cart: I doubt these issues are joined together. Just because my peersonal experience with contaminated colors was resulting from bad sealings inside the head, not from the inlet to the head... But that wasn't an epson, I have to say.

And regarding the workaround: I may be wrong, but you can not do more than you did already, dedicating one printer for MK and one for PK. Whatever you may fill in the "unused" cartridge, this would only be for "safety" - in case you unintentionally switch the blacks by switching the paper type.

PS: Myself I use to switch PK and MK intentionally once a month, because I don't print that much, and I want to keep the "ink selector" going and moving like it should. Just the opposite of dedicating the printer for only one of the two channels and taking the other "out of service". What is the better method...I can't say for sure...

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

So deepest blacks will be missing...

photo/glossy black inks may not yield the same black level on matte papers as genuine matte inks do, but that is as well something to test how visible such differences are on different papers and whether you are willing to live with that. The newer P600 inks give a better black level than the previous K3 inks, visibly better as I tested them, so a photo black ink may be good enough on matte paper as well - it's your decision.

 

[wannaby]

parameters of the driver/firmware in regard to specific settings - ink output, color balance , paper selection are not published, they are adjusted such that you get the best output with Epson inks on Epson papers. You need to run your own tests for all other combinations - 3rd party inks and papers, and you'll find interesting details - e.g. that a matte paper setting may give you a wider gamut on the same paper than selecting a glossy paper type, with a photo glossy ink in the matte cartridge which I saw on some printers. The total amount of ink may be different, some papers have a lower ink limit than other papers - there is no general rule for all that - you need to test and compare.
I tested quite a lot of inks and papers about a year ago - you can measure gamut and black level of various inks but a judgement of gloss, gloss differential, bronzing is a matter of your personal judgement, and any ink/paper combination looks somewhat different. So don't expect a miracle by the ConecolorPro inks - they are pretty good and expensive, but there are others pretty close to them.

Thanks for your advice. Yes, looks like I will have to just try it and see what happens. I have recent photo prints that I can use for side-by-side comparisions.

 

[wannaby]

One little detail here.
If you have PK ink in a MK cart so you Fool the printer to print on Photo Paper while still printing with the MK cart filled with PK ink.
Hope I have this correct!
You will not be able to choose ANY photo papers ( shiny PK using papers ) as those choices will be grayed out.
I tried this many years ago as I also had the same double 3800 setup!
Joe

Yes, you are absolutely correct! I really should be telling the printer to print on Matte paper. However, since I'll actually be using Photo paper, the results most likely will not be optimal... unless it's a Happy Accident. Thanks for catching that.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I really should be telling the printer to print on Matte paper. However, since I'll actually be using Photo paper, the results most likely will not be optimal..

I tested that several times - with several printers and inks - setting the driver to matte paper but actually printing to glossy paper - with a glossy photo black ink in the matte ink channel - e.g. with the R800 - and the gamut was better than with the typical standard settings - there are really surprises possible - just see an example for that in my recent posting https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/profiling-and-such-some-observations.11687/#post-98989 but I won't promise you that you would get the same - that's the fun part of it - this all is depending on the printer model and driver, the actual parameters embedded into the software, and their impact is not visible to you other than by testing it all out. And don't be afraid to test such off-standard settings.

 

[wannaby]

Probably I'm missing something - let me start with the last point:
The 3800 (like similar epsons with two blacks) prints either with PK exclusively or with MK exclusively. So yes the printer output with hook on "glossy" will be different from the output with hook on "matte"... whatever type of paper you put in the tray. For example print on matte with hook on glossy paper means PK on matte paper. So deepest blacks will be missing... The other way around is not recommended because MK on glossy will rub off.

I'm not sure what the word "hook" means in this context, but I think I understand what you are saying. I made a mistake in my workaround steps which is causing a bit of confusion. I should have said to select a *Matte* paper in the printer settings.

So to further clarify the process, I would be using only Photo paper in this printer, and by selecting the paper type as Matte (e.g. Velvet Fine Art or EMP), the printer would output PK ink (stored in the MK cart) onto Photo paper. Sorry for the confusion. Confusion pretty much was my state of mind at the time I wrote the post.

Now for the cross contamination and the leaking PK cart: I doubt these issues are joined together. Just because my peersonal experience with contaminated colors was resulting from bad sealings inside the head, not from the inlet to the head... But that wasn't an epson, I have to say.

I don't intend to disrespect your experience, but I should mention something else that happened recently with my 3800-MK printer. Since I turned this printer into a Matte=only printer 4 years ago, I have never had the yellow-black contamination. The yellow in Nozzle checks are always clean.

Three months ago, I wanted to print on Photo paper. Now this was before I was actively using the second/adopted printer so I thought maybe I could cheat history and use my 3800-MK printer to once again print PK ink on Photo paper. Well, I did the ink swap and when I did a Nozzle check, sure enough, I got a black blob on my paper. Subsequent Nozzle checks were showing increasing gaps coming out of the Black nozzle likely due to air. Then increasing black contamination in the yellow, and uncharacteristically in the other colors too. So I reverted back to Matte ink and it took an Auto Nozzle check to finally get a clean Manual Nozzle check. Dumb move and that's the last time I'll be doing that! So something goes awry when the switch is made from MK to PK... and turns out there are many other Epson owners out there with the same experience... unfortunately. Hope that makes sense. However, I do value your honest opinion!

And regarding the workaround: I may be wrong, but you can not do more than you did already, dedicating one printer for MK and one for PK. Whatever you may fill in the "unused" cartridge, this would only be for "safety" - in case you unintentionally switch the blacks by switching the paper type.

PS: Myself I use to switch PK and MK intentionally once a month, because I don't print that much, and I want to keep the "ink selector" going and moving like it should. Just the opposite of dedicating the printer for only one of the two channels and taking the other "out of service". What is the better method...I can't say for sure...

In addition to user error of unintentionally picking Photo paper in the printer driver, I was concerned about MK/PK ink swaps triggered by the printer's maintenance duty to occassional swap inks without my consent. This would result in Piezoflush from the inactive cart entering the printhead. This doesn't seem desirable and since I would not be aware of when this happens, I would not know to run a cleaning cycle... wasting more ink.

I'm now thinking I should fill both the MK and PK carts with PK ink and follow your practice of doing a swap once a month. After swapping from MK to PK, I'd immediately swap back to MK. That way, no Piezoflush in the head and I keep the printer maintenance duty at bay.

Thanks for persevering through my post!

 

[wannaby]

photo/glossy black inks may not yield the same black level on matte papers as genuine matte inks do, but that is as well something to test how visible such differences are on different papers and whether you are willing to live with that. The newer P600 inks give a better black level than the previous K3 inks, visibly better as I tested them, so a photo black ink may be good enough on matte paper as well - it's your decision.

I should have said I will be telling the printer that I am printing on Matte paper. Sorry for the confusion. I will also add a step in my process to say I would be printing only on Photo paper.

You're right that I should try it and see if it's good enough for my eyes.