What happens if I 3/4 refill and reset cartridge?

[stratman]

Startman, I think the 3/4 came from a top filler to avoid oversaturating the sponge. It doesn't apply to the German refill method.

Yes, my post concerned refilling using the German method. I am not commenting on the traditional top hole method since I do not use it.

I read the comments in the previous years about trying to keep the top part of the sponge free of ink, just the way it comes from the factory when new. My own refilling experience has proven this as unnecessary. It is true that if too much ink is in the cartridge as a whole, and especially if ink rises above the sponge in the sponged-side, then ink will leak from the ink exit port until equilibrium is achieved. But one can saturate the entire sponge with ink - no white left on the sponge - in and of itself and still not cause a leak. More than just a saturated appearing sponge needs to occur before a leak happens.

One of the rules OM2 is seeking should be to never use or store a refilled cartridge via the German method BEFORE it has proven not to leak with the second resting period. Overfilling at this point is easy to take care of since you should be using precautions against messes at this point anyway.

 

[OM2]

One of the rules OM2 is seeking should be to never use or store a refilled cartridge via the German method BEFORE it has proven not to leak with the second resting period. Overfilling at this point is easy to take care of since you should be using precautions against messes at this point anyway.

i don't understand what ur saying - can u elaborate?

all this discussion is really good
i think some of u more experienced guys should write a 'master' instruction set - i think it would be great for everyone else

 

[stratman]

i don't understand what ur saying - can u elaborate?

Please describe the steps you take when refilling if you use the Durchstich/German method. If you use the traditional top hole refill method then my comments do not apply to you and won't matter to you. Your detailing then would be unnecessary.

 

[OM2]

Please describe the steps you take when refilling if you use the Durchstich/German method.

Well... just following instructions fro Octoink:

1. Bore hole at correct place
2. Guide needle carefully into cartridge + make sure at least 2mm is sticking out into reservoir
3. Carefully and slowly release the ink into the chamber AND making sure you don't let go of squeezee bottle
4. When 3/4 of reservoir chamber is fully withdraw the needed carefully
5. Only release the pressure on the bottle once needle outside - this being done, since otherwise ink can be sucked back into the needle
6. Leave to rest for a few minutes
7. Ink will now soak into sponge slowly
8. Reinsert needle and top the reservoir chamber upto 3/4 and withdraw the needle - all steps being the same as above

I think that sums it up

The instructions given do specifically state that topping up more than 3/4 will result in leakage

Am I doing anything wrong?

Thanks

 

[stratman]

OM2:

This instructions are fine, but have a margin of safety built into them to guard against issues and potential complaints. Canon does this with their cartridges and printers, such as all the cleaning cycles. I would guess that Octoink does the same. In my experience refilling CLI-8 and PGI-5 cartridges it is unnecessary to be that cautious. Other cartridge models may require those precise directions. I don't know since I do not use other models of cartridges. It is ok for you to experiment since you will be working over your sink or newspaper the whole time, so drips and spills will be contained. You are working over a sink or some other contained area, aren't you?

With the Durchstich method, and CLI-8 and PGI-5 cartridges, other model numbers may behave the same, my corrections or additions would be:

4) Fill to 4 mm from the top of the spongeless side (or even 2 mm based on how empty the cartridge is when you begin).

6) Place cartridge rightside up (with needle-syringe still inside the cartridge if you like) for approximately 1 minute for first "resting" phase. By the time you finish with another cartridge, this cartridge will either be leak free - which you can then continue with - or need will be dripping ink (leaking) from too much ink and you can wait or you can suck/squeeze some ink out to facilitate equilibrium and stop the leak. Thus process usually take 30-60 seconds if no leak occurs. Leaking is highly unusual once you understand how to initially refill.

8. There is no need to remove the needle, so you should not be needing to reinsert the needle to top off the cartridge. Now top off the cartridge to about 4 mm from top of spongeless side.

9. Remove needle and set cartridge rightside up for second "resting" phase. This step is just like the 6th step except the needle is removed from the cartridge. This is the last step before storing or using the cartridge and is done to make sure the cartrisdge is not leaking, ie ink and atmosphere are in equilibrium, ie the cartridge is not over-filled.

10. The ink level may drop a little thereafter in the spongeless side. The sponge may become completely colored by ink. But the cartridge has been verified to not leak after step 9. You should have a well filled cartridge, probably slightly over-filled but within tolerances, that will perform in synch with a reset chip and the printer's ink level monitoring warnings all the way to Empty.

-- The amount of ink soaked up by the sponge after step 9 may cause the spongeless side ink level to recede to varying degrees. If I see that it is much more than 0.5 cm - definately your 3/4 fill - I would top it off again to about 4 mm from the top. Now I know my cartridge is amply filled and the ink monitoring system will work as intended.

-- Refilling has a learning curve and is somewhat an art as well as a science. You will get better with your technique and your ability to gauge variances. The process is fairly cookbook, which makes it sort of monkey proof, but there will be some things you will learn to finesse through experience and not a forum.

There is no harm refilling early. It is completely up to you how your comfort level and experience on how you care to proceed.

 

[rodbam]

I found when filling my first cartridge with the German method by holding the cart upside down with the printer head outlet facing up that as I got to about 3/4 full the ink started to backwash into the sponge area so I stopped filling. On my next cart I placed the cart on its short side with the sponge & outlet at the top & just slowly filled it seemed that doing it this way I could fill the cartridge right up to full with just a small pocket of air & no backwash into the sponge area. Because my needle was put in the cart as low as it was possible the needle went under the sponge & didn't have to pierce through it but it hits a stop when only a fraction into the ink well so by turning the cart on its short side with the ink chamber down the ink came out of the syringe & gravity fed the chamber until it was full. I think if you go into the sponge a little higher & bore through the sponge with a needle you can get the needle a lot further into the ink chamber.
I think that when top filling you can over saturate the sponge when filling over 3/4 full & cause leaks, my sponges were still saturated from the previous OEM ink.
Regards Rod

 

[ghwellsjr]

We all agree: refill completely and reset before the printer says the cartridge is empty, correct?

What do you mean by "refill completely" and at what point exactly do you refill before the cartridge is marked as empty by the printer?

The method I described does not require one to refill before the printer marks the cartridge as empty. I have never run dry prior to the cartridge marked as empty. Is there something different than the CLI-8's and PGI-5's with the newer cartridge models?

I should have said to refill at least when the cartridge registers empty. You can do it when its low or anytime before. Although I sometimes tell the printer to continue printing when it registers an empty cartridge, you don't want to risk burning nozzles out due to lack of ink to keep them cool.

By "refill completely" I don't mean 3/4 full, I don't mean 4mm from the top, I mean get all the air out. Why wouldn't you? It will make absolutely no difference to the sponge or to the risk of any kind of leak and I would think you would want to give yourself the most margin for the chip to keep track of when the cartridge goes empty and you want to minimize the number of refills.

Maybe Websnail will come on and explain why he is suggesting 3/4 fill.

Two other suggestions:

It is a good idea to top off and reset all of your dye ink cartridges at the same time to minimize wasted ink caused by the cleaning cycles after you reset any one of the dye ink cartridges (for printers that also have a pigment black ink cartridge), especially if you see one cartridge quite low when you are refilling another empty one. The cleaning cycle may cause the low one to register emtpy.

I recommend putting a piece of tape across the German refill hole to prevent an air flow into the reservoir and leakage out of the cartridge. Once this happens to you, you will become a believer.

 

[Redbrickman]

I think the Octoink instruction to remove the needle after the first fill on the German method is there to avoid sucking ink back when using a SquEasy bottle. With a normal syringe there is unlikely to be any suction.

I have no doubt Martin will be along at some point to advise. I would stress it is only my opinion and I may be totally wrong

My method using the bottles has been...

1 Fill reservoir to almost full by slowly and gently squeezing the bottle
2 Allow the bottle to return to it's normal shape before turning cartridge the right way up
3. Rest the cartridge with the bottle attached for a few minutes
4. Refill the reservoir to almost full, and allow the bottle to return to normal shape
5 Remove needle and turn cartridge over, then allow it to sit for a while and check for no leaks.

So far I have had no problems with the method above, and have not found that the ink gets sucked back in to the bottle. As long as you keep the cart upside down until the bottle has returned to shape there is no problem. If you overfill the reservoir then I expect the bottle would take back ink, but that might be a good thing anyway.

Also it means only one insertion of the needle through the sponge during each refill.

 

[The Hat]

ghwellsjr Hat. I thought you were saying that you started with four full and reset cartridges and then you started printing and visually monitored the ink level and when it got to 1/2 full in the reservoir, you reset the cartridge without refilling, and continued printing and monitoring and resetting. BUT, then you say you "changed the four cartridges twice". Was this a second experiment where you refilled? Did you swap in a different cartridge? You also talk about a second fill and refilling a third time. So I have no idea what you did.

OK George, I started with just four full cartridges, chips showing full, waited till the cartridges were approx full,
then reset the chips back to full again and wanted to see what would happen.

First off was the pigment black showed low ink warning, stopped refilled and reset to full again then continued to print.
Then the yellow ran completely dry no ink on the paper, stopped refilled and reset to full again and continued on.

Next the cyan ran dry also, stopped refilled and reset to full again and continued.
Then the magenta gave low ink warning so, stopped refilled and reset to full again to continue.

As I got completely different results from each cartridge on the first fill I decided to try it again
with the same procedures and cartridges, i.e. reset each cartridge in turn when showing full in the reservoirs.

The black was first with low ink warning (same as before)
Then cyan showed low ink warning (different than before)

The magenta and yellow (Both different again) continued to print on regardless, showing no signs of ink loss or colour
to a point where I just got peed off watching and refilled them both just to finish my print run.

I use the method of reset first then fill the reservoir to 3/4, wait several minutes, top up to again, seal and reinstall,
I usually get a few drops of ink coming out of the cartridge just before installations.

The whole outcome of this is that one can never know how much ink is actually left in the sponge
when the chip registers "cartridge empty", I reckon as much as 12%.

So whether you reset and fill completely or just to full youll still get the usual two ink warnings and stay well within the safety margins.
I still dont know if the sensor plays a role in ink monitoring at all, but then why do Canon still provide it on most of their cartridges.

It could be that it is used between the low ink and the empty warning, purely a guess on my part.

I think the Octoink instruction to remove the needle after the first fill on the German method is there to avoid sucking ink back when using a SquEasy bottle.
With a normal syringe there is unlikely to be any suction.
I have no doubt Martin will be along at some point to advice. Next Week as hes away.

Octoinks method is Im sure a tried and tested way to best use his SquEasy bottles and not with syringes.
As for the fill idea, most new people using the German method will try to fill their cartridges as much as they can
and might end up making a huge mess of it, so its probably his way of avoiding of having to explain everything again
to a colourful customer + it makes perfect sense too.

But the bottom line is that if you always refill completely and reset, no matter what the previous state of the cartridge,
then you can trust the printer's level display and you will never have a problem. Correct? Most certainly

We all agree: refill completely and reset before the printer says the cartridge is empty, correct? I will go with that ok.

 

[stratman]

We all agree: refill completely and reset before the printer says the cartridge is empty, correct?

What do you mean by "refill completely" and at what point exactly do you refill before the cartridge is marked as empty by the printer?

The method I described does not require one to refill before the printer marks the cartridge as empty. I have never run dry prior to the cartridge marked as empty. Is there something different than the CLI-8's and PGI-5's with the newer cartridge models?

I should have said to refill at least when the cartridge registers empty. You can do it when its low or anytime before. Although I sometimes tell the printer to continue printing when it registers an empty cartridge, you don't want to risk burning nozzles out due to lack of ink to keep them cool.

Agree.

By "refill completely" I don't mean 3/4 full, I don't mean 4mm from the top, I mean get all the air out. Why wouldn't you? It will make absolutely no difference to the sponge or to the risk of any kind of leak and I would think you would want to give yourself the most margin for the chip to keep track of when the cartridge goes empty and you want to minimize the number of refills.

Again, agree. The amount you fill is based on one's experiences and comfort level. The reason I fill to 2mm is I have experienced drips when I've filled to the top on the second refill step - the topping off of the cartridge, so I reflexively fill to max of 2mm from the top. This is based on my experience and forms the tolerances I suggest to others. In this way, my recommendation is exactly like websnail's 3/4 fill recommendation - I'm trying to prevent problems which have occurred if I push it further but do not occur if I stay within those limitations. This is the finesse or art of refilling that I mentioned and may be different for different folks due to atmospheric conditions, the saturation of the sponge at the beginning of the refill, and whether one squirts ink onto the sponge as they withdraw the needle. There might even be subtle alterations in sponge architecture and therefore the dynamics of all the elements of the cartridge, ink and atmospheric conditions which make the difference in a well behaving refilled cartridge with one amount of ink versus a less than optimal performing cartridge with a different amount of ink. This is something each refiller will need to determine through experience on their own.

It is a good idea to top off and reset all of your dye ink cartridges at the same time to minimize wasted ink caused by the cleaning cycles after you reset any one of the dye ink cartridges (for printers that also have a pigment black ink cartridge), especially if you see one cartridge quite low when you are refilling another empty one. The cleaning cycle may cause the low one to register emtpy.

Agree. Best if one does this to minimize wasting ink from "new" cartridge cleaning cycles, and, to slow the march to a filled waste ink counter and the hassles or expensive of rectifying.