Wanting to tap the forum's collective wisdom

[Venom]

Hi all,

Firstly, a huge thank you for this forum. The collective wisdom here is immense (especially people like The Hat and Pharmacist). Major props.

I wish I had found you guys earlier as I learned the harder way. I have a Canon IP4700. I started with a CIS system, which was awful. Then I found the ink from Precision Colors, which was a great improvement on the ink side. Then I've been using some non-OEM refillable cartridges. Things have been really hit and miss; the main problem seems to be irregular ink flow from the cartridge into the print head as sometimes the ink outlets get flooded with a colour (black or magenta often) and as a result you get prints with colors missing. I got mixed results over about a year, now after a month of cleaning the head after only a print or two I'm giving up. I suspect, after a few hours reading last night, that the best answer is to refill Canon originals to make advantage of all the cunning engineering they put into their own tanks.

I think it's time to start over with a new printer, especially as I need to printer larger images. So I need your advice.

(1) Are Canon printers intrinsically more difficult to get good consistent refilling results from than Epsons? Or are they both backwards engineered to be difficult?

I can get a Canon 9000 Mark II for about $350 CDN (I live in Canada). If I was to go this route:

(2) I saw that Precision Colors recommend modifying the cartridges with a top-fill type method, whereas the German method appears to be king on the forums. Do they both work, or is it just a matter of preference? I am a bit skittish about top fill methods as the non-OEM cartridges I used in the IP4700 were top-fill (and couldn't control ink flow), but I presume this is more the design of the cartridges than a problem with the method itself?
(3) If I go with the Canon 9000 and the German method is there an easy way to get a hold of needles long enough to do the job (I can only find the blunted-end type)
(4) Are you supposed to insert the needle tip all the way INTO the empty ink reservoir on the other side of the sponge? Isn't there a plastic wall to get through in order to do that?
(5) I presume a chip resetter is best....are they all the same or is there one that stands out? Any experience with the one on the Precision Colors e-bay site?
(6) And finally.....how many times can you re-fill a Canon cartridge before you need to fork out for a fresh one and start over?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm a committed refiller but I want to get it right this time if I am starting over with a new printer.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[The Hat]

Welcome Venom to this forum finally..

I have a Canon IP4700. I started with a CIS system, which was awful. Then I found the ink from Precision Colors, which was a great improvement on the ink side. Then I've been using some non-OEM refillable cartridges. Things have been really hit and miss; the main problem seems to be irregular ink flow from the cartridge into the print head as sometimes the ink outlets get flooded with a colour (black or magenta often) and as a result you get prints with colors missing. I got mixed results over about a year, now after a month of cleaning the head after only a print or two I'm giving up.

The history you presented on all the problems that youve had with your 4700 made me laugh, not at you directly.
But you had just about every problem you could have had and are still stay sane enough to seek help.

(1) Are Canon printers intrinsically more difficult to get good consistent refilling results from than Epsons? Or are they both backwards engineered to be difficult?
I can get a Canon 9000 Mark II for about $350 CDN (I live in Canada). If I was to go this route:

OK I cant answer for any Epson printers because I am a confirmed follower of Canon printers only,
so if you can get a 9000 cheaply then get one but try Craigslist first (Could be a better bet).

(2) I saw that Precision Colors recommend modifying the cartridges with a top-fill type method, whereas the German method appears to be king on the forums.

As far as refilling the OEM cartridges is concerned Id suggest you try both methods together and then you decide
on whichever one is easiest and the most comfortable for you to use.

(3) If I go with the Canon 9000 and the German method is there an easy way to get a hold of needles long enough to do the job

Whatever youll need for refilling including any extra empty cartridges or resetter can be got at http://www.precisioncolors.com

(4) Are you supposed to insert the needle tip all the way INTO the empty ink reservoir on the other side of the sponge? Isn't there a plastic wall to get through in order to do that?

Instructions on how to refill using the German method can be seen on this post (With Photos) by Pharmacist http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4315

(5) I presume a chip resetter is best....are they all the same or is there one that stands out? Any experience with the one on the Precision Colors e-bay site?

A resetter is a great way to make your refilled cartridges work just like new, not necessary essential but I'd say a must buy.

(6) And finally.....how many times can you re-fill a Canon cartridge before you need to fork out for a fresh one and start over?

OEM cartridges can be filled again and again and can last just as long as the lifetime of the printer, in a nutshell years.

Footnote:- dont give up on your 4700 just yet, it may be salvageable later when you have conquered refilling and the same inks will also work in the 9000.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

Either method is fine. If you try topfilling, be sure to follow Mikling's (Precision Colors) procedure.

 

[fotofreek]

I can get a Canon 9000 Mark II for about $350 CDN (I live in Canada). If I was to go this route:

(2) I saw that Precision Colors recommend modifying the cartridges with a top-fill type method, whereas the German method appears to be king on the forums. Do they both work, or is it just a matter of preference? I am a bit skittish about top fill methods as the non-OEM cartridges I used in the IP4700 were top-fill (and couldn't control ink flow), but I presume this is more the design of the cartridges than a problem with the method itself?

The canon 9000 mark II printers have been given, in a package deal, to people in the US who have purchased some high-end Canon cameras. Hopefully that has also been done in Canada. On Craig's list there are always lots of them that are being sold new and unused in their factory sealed boxes. The asking prices range from $100 US to $250. If you can find one that has not been opened on Craig's list in your area I expect that it will be a comparable price to the US. I bought one recently but haven't set it up yet. It is quite large and will take a fair amount of your desk space. I bought it to do some larger prints.

I've been top filling for nearly eight years and have not been interested in trying the German method as the top fill method has proven to be pretty much fool-proof for me. Most critical is the seal of the fill hole. There are a few participants who have switched to the German method and gone back to top filling, but nearly all the posts on the German method appear to be very positive. I've set up the work-flow for top filling to go pretty quickly and don't feel inclined to work out another method when what I am doing is 100% reliable for me.

OEM carts have proven the most reliable for refilling. You noted that you have been refilling non-OEM carts. I'd also suggest that you look up the thread on purging carts as that may be necessary to occasionally restore proper feeding of ink.

I would repeat The Hat's suggestion to not give up on the IP4700 printer - that is, unless you really want a larger format printer instead of being limited to letter size prints.

 

[Venom]

Thanks The Hat (and everyone else who contributed). Much appreciated.

I would like the option to print larger so I think I will upgrade.

Could someone explain the physics behind the top fill method? I read through Precision Colors instructions (again). The *only* material difference between this described method and the way I was refilling the old aftermarket cartridges I had for the IP4700 was the step where you tape off the top air hole until the ink well is filled. Everything else was the same. So either (1) blocking off the air hole is a critical step for some reason or (2) there is some very subtle difference in the way the Canon original cartridge and the aftermarket ones are manufactured that makes using the Canon ones work and the aftermarket ones struggle with the flow rate through the print head. To my untrained eye the cartridges looked the same.

I'm inches away from buying the printer and getting all the bits and pieces from precision colors I need to refill, but the similarity with their method and my old refill routine with the aftermarket cartridges makes me nervous! I'd rather not have a repeat of refilling/reinstalling cartridges/print 2 pages/color not printing/check print head/find smear of ink all over ink jets/clean printhead/rinse+repeat!

Thanks again!

Welcome Venom to this forum finally..

I have a Canon IP4700. I started with a CIS system, which was awful. Then I found the ink from Precision Colors, which was a great improvement on the ink side. Then I've been using some non-OEM refillable cartridges. Things have been really hit and miss; the main problem seems to be irregular ink flow from the cartridge into the print head as sometimes the ink outlets get flooded with a colour (black or magenta often) and as a result you get prints with colors missing. I got mixed results over about a year, now after a month of cleaning the head after only a print or two I'm giving up.

The history you presented on all the problems that youve had with your 4700 made me laugh, not at you directly.
But you had just about every problem you could have had and are still stay sane enough to seek help.

(1) Are Canon printers intrinsically more difficult to get good consistent refilling results from than Epsons? Or are they both backwards engineered to be difficult?
I can get a Canon 9000 Mark II for about $350 CDN (I live in Canada). If I was to go this route:

OK I cant answer for any Epson printers because I am a confirmed follower of Canon printers only,
so if you can get a 9000 cheaply then get one but try Craigslist first (Could be a better bet).

(2) I saw that Precision Colors recommend modifying the cartridges with a top-fill type method, whereas the German method appears to be king on the forums.

As far as refilling the OEM cartridges is concerned Id suggest you try both methods together and then you decide
on whichever one is easiest and the most comfortable for you to use.

(3) If I go with the Canon 9000 and the German method is there an easy way to get a hold of needles long enough to do the job

Whatever youll need for refilling including any extra empty cartridges or resetter can be got at http://www.precisioncolors.com

(4) Are you supposed to insert the needle tip all the way INTO the empty ink reservoir on the other side of the sponge? Isn't there a plastic wall to get through in order to do that?

Instructions on how to refill using the German method can be seen on this post (With Photos) by Pharmacist http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4315

(5) I presume a chip resetter is best....are they all the same or is there one that stands out? Any experience with the one on the Precision Colors e-bay site?

A resetter is a great way to make your refilled cartridges work just like new, not necessary essential but I'd say a must buy.

(6) And finally.....how many times can you re-fill a Canon cartridge before you need to fork out for a fresh one and start over?

OEM cartridges can be filled again and again and can last just as long as the lifetime of the printer, in a nutshell years.

Footnote:- dont give up on your 4700 just yet, it may be salvageable later when you have conquered refilling and the same inks will also work in the 9000.

 

[MiniMe]

I always top fill also and fill without tape to almost full on the ink tank side. Then I put a small clip from the dollar store on the cart and tape the vent. Then I remove the orange clip and then the tape. I found that less ink drips out into the clips using this method.

Do your refillables have plugs or have you drilled out generic clear carts. The Canon carts are slightly different as they have 2 different densities of sponge. Even OEM carts need to be purged occasionally especially pigment carts as other posters advised. With a purge your refillables will more than likely provide good flow again.

 

[The Hat]

Venom
I read through Precision Colors instructions (again). The *only* material difference between this described method and the way I was refilling the old aftermarket cartridges

The refilling method that you read through is a tried and trusted method when using OEM carts.

the Canon ones work and the aftermarket ones struggle with the flow rate through the print head.

I know that aftermarket carts look very much the same as OEMs and perform the same but usually only for a short while that is the reason why the consensus on here is to ONLY refill OEM carts because therere so reliable time and time again.

there is some very subtle difference in the way the Canon original cartridge and the aftermarket ones are manufactured

Simply to say the air maze on the top of the OEM cart is different and the sponges inside are also completely different but at a glance the cartridges all look exactly the same but they are far from it.

If you follow the instructions that you have read carefully then your efforts with be successful when refilling the OEM carts and all of the problems you so kindly shared with us that happened to you previously will be a distant memory.

There is one simple test you can make yourself after you have successfully refilled and plugged the refill hole as per instructions on your cartridges, just to prove it wont leak inside your printer or stop working after only a couple of sheets are printed.

Firstly remove the tape from the air maze followed by the orange clip from the outlet hole then watch and wait for the cartridge to leak up to a half a dozen drops of ink and then it will stop.

This test is to demonstrate that you have filled the cartridge correctly and it is now ready to be used anytime
or recapped with the orange clip and kept for later use.

If however it continues to leak then you have not sealed the refill hole properly and will need to look at your refilling procedure carefully again.
Anyway I taught you were thinking of using the German method on these newer cartridges instead of the traditional top fill method..

 

[MiniMe]

I am a new member and have refilled both refillable and OEM carts many times. My question to the hat is have you ever used any refillable carts yourself? Or are you just biasing your opinion on hearsay?

 

[fotofreek]

I am a new member and have refilled both refillable and OEM carts many times. My question to the hat is have you ever used any refillable carts yourself? Or are you just biasing your opinion on hearsay?

Mini - in your post did you mean to say "biasing" or "basing"? Would you regard as hearsay the years of gathering information on this forum from the personal experience of other participants? Just need to better understand your question. Bias and hearsay do have a negative connotation.

The Hat will answer for himself, but I will relate my own experience. Easier to print a quote from a previous post than reinvent the wheel:

"To add to the "tape over the serpentine channel of the air vent" discussion, when we were in the early stages of posting on this forum there were compatable carts that were touted as being good ones. Rob, our Nifty-stuff.com founder and administrator, noted that some carts of a particular brand (I believe it was "Arrow") fed well and some didn't. He also noted that when he opened the fill hole to refill some of these carts the ink level that remained in the reservoir side suddenly dropped. This may have been a result of poor pressure balance as the cart was used.

I had just purchased a dozen Arrow carts and did an evaluation. Turns out that when I removed the covering over the air chanel they were obviously from either two different manufacturers or were from different molds from one manufacturer. The problem carts had a different shaped air channel and too small an air vent - that is the actual hole in the top of the cart over the foam area. I enlarged them and they worked fine without bothering to cover the vent and most of the channel.

I had also purchased some unfilled compatable carts - as I recall, from MIS - and they had no covering over the vent or part of the air channel like the OEM carts have. Worked just fine and with no problems."

This experience, plus the posted experience of many other participants that I've read over the years of existance of this forum, was sufficient tp convince me that I preferred the uniformly good results from refilling OEM carts to the hit-and-miss reliability of aftermarket carts. Yes, there are some aftermarket carts that will perform well, but there are also some that will not. It is your choice to use whatever you wish, but based on my own experience I recommend refilling OEM carts rather than buying and experimenting with aftermarket carts to come up with some that are as reliable as OEM. No bias, no hearsay.

You might also want to refer back to my response to another question you had posed (http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=57117#p57117) in which you essentially posed your question in a accusative tone - that someone was "pushing" their technique. It is our intent to respect what people post and draw our own conclusions. Unlike many other forums we discourage anything other than respectful dialogue.

 

[MiniMe]

I respect your response but I wait for the hat to respond. I have observed that many of the most frequent posters are using older canon models...ie not the 225/226 printers. It is easier for them to say OEM only but after you have refilled some of the newer carts your opinion may change....I know mine did. Which refillables do you base your opinion on Fotofreek? Same as with the hat I read a lot of conjecture but little real info...ie which retailer supplied these inferior carts. I know the retailers which sell this type of cart and back them with a lifetime guarantee but I will not name drop as others do on this forum regularly.