Tips for setting up new pro9000 mkII for refilling?

[stratman]

Grandexp:

I looked at the MSDS for the Canon CLI-8 and PGI-5 inks. Some, but not all, of the inks have a revision date which could mean the formulation was altered.

I then downloaded the latest drivers (v.1.10) available for my MP830 and examined the ICM files - Canon's proprietary ICC files - to note for date changes reflecting a recalculated printer profile. The ICM printer profiles were unchanged and dated from 7/2005 just as they were in a driver I downloaded back in 5/2006. Also, the ICM file dates are earlier than the revisions noted in the MSDS'es, so it looks like those changes resulting in a revised MSDS did not necessitate a recalculated ICM printer profile.

However... there is one ICM file in the latest drivers that is not found even in a driver I have with a creation date of 11/2008: CNBJPRN3.IC_ with date of 9/26/2005, a date newer than the other ICM files by a couple of months. Could this represent a recalculated ICM or just an additional ICM not found in the origina drivers? An ICM file named CNBJPRN2.IC_ was and still is included in drivers before this differently enumerated CNBJPRN -"3" file showed up.

FYI about Canon ICM/ICC files:

CNB7QCA0.ICM - Canon MP830 PR1
PR1 = Photo Paper Pro (print quality level 1)

CNB7QCB0.ICM - Canon MP830 PR2
PR2 = Photo Paper Pro (quality level 2)

CNB7QCC0.ICM - Canon MP830 PR3
PR3= Photo Paper Pro (quality level 3)

CNB7QDB0.ICM - Canon MP830 MP2
MP2 = Matte Photo Paper (quality level 2)

CNB7QEB0.ICM - Canon MP830 SP2
SP2 = Photo Paper Plus Glossy (quality level 2)

CNB7QED0.ICM - Canon MP830 SP4
SP4 = Photo Paper Plus Glossy (quality level 4)

CNBJPRN2.ICM - BJ Color Printer Profile 2000

CNFMP83R.ICC - Canon MP830 Reflective (W)

CNZ005.ICC - Canon HDTV gamma 1.5 Monitor

The ICM file's suggest no change in formulation of the inkset, at least one requiring a recalculation of ICM printer profiles, as inferred by the same ICM file creation dates used within drivers distributed by Canon over the years.

 

[Grandexp]

Stratman: You have done good research. It's interesting to look at ICM data. Thank you.

However, Canon did constantly change ink formulation. Their ink formulation changed once when printers with CLI-8 cartridges were released. Their ink changed again when printers with CLI-220 were in the market. I am not sure if it changed again when CLI-256s came out.

Canon i9900 and Pro9000 MKI and MKII all have a same print head with a same part number. I9900 uses BCI-6 inks. Pro9000 uses CLI-8 inks. This is an example of the ink formulation change by Canon. Canon's dealing with the change was to cancel i9900 and release Pro9000. Those who wore out their i9900 then bought Pro9000 had to profile for their papers again. I don't think Canon ever warned people about the ink formulation change. They simply discontinue i9900 and if you still want Canon 8 color printer you have to buy P9000 and re-profile.

Let's take a look at IS inks. IS pigment ink for BCI-3eBK was WJ1010. But their current ink for BCI-3eBK is WJ1020. According to IS catalog WJ1020 is also for PGI-5BK. So IS changed the black pigment ink from WJ1010 to WJ1020 at the time PGI-5 came out. WJ1010 is no longer necessary any more and is discontinued. It's not shown on IS catalog any more.

This is an example of IS ink formulation change. It probably changed other ink formulation as well. I have no data to say it did or it did not. I looked at IS catalog to check out their inks for ip4000. mp830. i9900 and Pro9000. I found some inks used for BCI-6 are still used by CLI-8. Some CLI-8 inks are new and different. Some are the same used for BCI-6.

Because of this I am wondering if the formulation change is only in the dye concentration of an ink, which changes color density. Some new ink may contain new dye but if some colors use old dyes for BCI-6s. I doubt new dyes are used for CLI-8. We will never know. It is for sure the IS CLI-8 ink set uses some old dyes. I am surprised by this finding. I don't think IS ink set is as complicated as people thought. They might use only a set of CMY dyes to formulate all dye inks for Canon.

Other than the proof I found of the IS formulation change on the black pigment ink I don't have any more proof for color inks. I am not going to force you to believe that IS ink formulation never change. It is my believe ink formulation change is necessary. The part number of the ink should change but the name of the ink set may not change if the new formulation is still for a same application.

Let's get back to the original discussion. I do not have any proof or real knowledge if Hobbicolors have changed inks over the years or not. Fish has a completely opposite (almost) opinion from mine about their ink. I thought the difference may be that we had used different set of inks. I have no proof. I don't have an answer.

I believe ink formulation change is good. If the ink needs a change to improve certain properties it should be changed. Tweaking ink formulation should be done from time to time to improve the ink. It may or may not impact users of the ink. My impression of people who profile their ink and paper is they probably keep produciing profiles every month or even every week. If a new formulation is for a better set of ink I don't think they would be unhappy that they have to re-profile again.

 

[Grandexp]

Grandexp,

If Hobbicolors were selling IS inks, why would they not have red and green for the 9000?

I bought Hobbicolors inks for my Pro9000 MKII. They have red and green inks.

 

[fish]

My mistake, they didn't have it back then but have it in their current inkset.

 

[stratman]

Grandexp:

Again, changing PIGMENT BLACK ink does not require recalculating ICC printer profiles because it is the DYE-BASED inks that create the color palette in the Canon printers involved in this discussion. Using a different pigment black ink is inconsequential to color accuracy in photo printing. This is a non sequitur, a red herring issue.

There has been no disagreement that ink formulations have changed from cartridge model to cartridge model. There were lengthy discussions on the forum in years past, including photospectrometric data, about changes made between inksets which you may search for and read. However, you continue to miss the critical point that there has been either no change or insignificant changes made to a specific inkset for the SAME CARTRIDGE MODEL as inferred by Canon continuing to use the SAME ICM profiles for the CLI-8 cartridges since 2005, even though the MSDS may have been revised. Whether a reformulation has occurred within, not between, the CLI-221 or CLI-226 models is not within my purveiw as I do not use either of those inksets.

Again, quality and consistency are the sine qua non to happy printing. I believe those calculating their own ICC profiles using third party inksets, especially those on the forum that perform photospectrometric analysis on their inks, would have reported significant shifts. This has not happened. Additionally, changes in perceptible color accuracy for refillers who only use Canon's proprietary ICM printer profiles would have reported changes as well. This has not happened either, barring outliers having nothing to do with reformulation changes as best as can be determined.

More data is needed to make definitive conclusions.

 

[Grandexp]

Grandexp:

Again, changing PIGMENT BLACK ink does not require recalculating ICC printer profiles because it is the DYE-BASED inks that create the color palette in the Canon printers involved in this discussion. Using a different pigment black ink is inconsequential to color accuracy in photo printing. This is a non sequitur, a red herring issue.

Stratman: if Image Specialists reformulated an ink, regardless what color of ink it is, you can't rule that they won't reformulate other inks including color inks.

There has been no disagreement that ink formulations have changed from cartridge model to cartridge model. There were lengthy discussions on the forum in years past, including photospectrometric data, about changes made between inksets which you may search for and read. However, you continue to miss the critical point that there has been either no change or insignificant changes made to a specific inkset for the SAME CARTRIDGE MODEL as inferred by Canon continuing to use the SAME ICM profiles for the CLI-8 cartridges since 2005, even though the MSDS may have been revised. Whether a reformulation has occurred within, not between, the CLI-221 or CLI-226 models is not within my purveiw as I do not use either of those inksets.

Canon produced CLI-8 inks as BCI-6 inks replacements. It was a move needed to combat against Epson and HP. Canon knew their BCI-6 inks were old and needed better inks. It not only reformulated the ink they also changed the design of the cartridge. You are absolutely right. They don't just reformulate the BCI-6 inks and continue to sell BCI-6 cartridges with new inks in them. It would have been stupidity to do that by Canon for obvious reasons.

Again, quality and consistency are the sine qua non to happy printing.

Absolutely. Keep in mind Canon has a 100% freedom to change the cartridge whenever they reformulate their inks for better quality purposes. There is no such freedom for a compatible ink manufacturer. They will reformulate if they have to for quality purposes too. If Image Specialists produced a not so great BCI-6 inks 8 years ago won't you like that they improve it and sell you a better one today? Would you insist that they do not ever change anything in the inks? If their BCI-6 inks are from an old formulation made 8 years ago and another company makes gradual improvement over and over I will not buy the old ink. I want quality inks. Inks made with an 8 year old formulation can't be better ink.

I believe those calculating their own ICC profiles using third party inksets, especially those on the forum that perform photospectrometric analysis on their inks, would have reported significant shifts. This has not happened. Additionally, changes in perceptible color accuracy for refillers who only use Canon's proprietary ICM printer profiles would have reported changes as well. This has not happened either, barring outliers having nothing to do with reformulation changes as best as can be determined.

Canon let old inks go, reformulate and released new printers with new cartridges. If I were a compatible ink manufacturer I would optimize my compatible inks for the old printers to beat Canon's old formulation. But that's me. You may wish to continue use of an old formulation. You may never be tired of an old ink just for the reason that you don't ever need to reprofile the ink. I will get the latest and the best always.

Canon CLI-8 inks are old now. I don't care how good CLI-8 inks from Image Specialists once were. If they don't have the latest formulation I will look elsewhere for one.