Tips for setting up new pro9000 mkII for refilling?

[fish]

Grandexp,
I should clarify - to my own eyes, Hobbicolors was overly saturated and not close to OEM. My comment was addressed to Hobbicolors not being the same ink as IS, not one being better than the other in terms of clogging, fading or any other reason. I purchase my IS inks from Precision Colors - I don't think of a price differential as being a reason for using one ink over the other as the savings is substantial whichever ink is used. I have not gone back and tried Hobbicolors recently because of the satisfaction with IS inks. I would not switch back unless there is a major reason to. My description of "quite different" meant that colors were too saturated and not to my personal liking and was not meant to be a "strong phrase", as you put it.

I am not trying to start a discussion or argument - only to point out that output from Hobbicolors and IS inks were QUITE DIFFERENT and I preferred the colors in my photos using IS inks. I will admit that Hobbicolors customer service was very good with immediate answers to my questions. What put me off was that they recommended that I switch papers for text printing with their pigment black, that I had no issues with Inktec and IS inks. Maybe different now, but at ths point I will not go back snd try just to see, when I am satisfied with IS inks.

 

[stratman]

Our free browser Firefox gets changed all the time. Netscape was once a most popular browser. I switched from Netscape to Firefox without hesitation. I will be surprised if Hobbicolors sticks to a same formulation forever. That's why I questioned when Fish tried Hobbicolors inks. If you use IS inks long enough they have changed quite a bit too. You will not get a same black pigment ink they sold 5 years ago.

You may be correct that IS ink formula has drifted over time. However, unlike changing web browsers, changing ink formulation would create color shifts which may become unacceptable for the hobbyists, especially those who have gone to the trouble of matching ink, paper and printer in a custom made ICC profile.

Why would Hobbicolors change formulations when if it ain't broke, why fix it? The only reasons I can think of are supply, laws, and/or expense. I have not heard of either instance causing a change to the formula as determined from end-user measurements of color spectrum analysis. I don't want to assert a formula change without further data, such as spectrophotmetric or industry-insider in origin. It could be a different formula but there isn't enough data or even internet chatter to think so IMO.

I think the most important thing is whether one is happy with the performance of their ink. It sounds like you are. Excellent! Hobbicolors makes for some beautiful prints. Keep on keeping on, my friend.

 

[Grandexp]

Fish: I am not questioning your judgement of Hobbicolors ink. I was very clear and asked when you tried their ink. Maybe your experience was based on an outdated version of the Canon compatible ink they sold. You seemed to have answered it. You used it quite some years ago. Am I correct?

 

[Grandexp]

Stratman: If Canon still sells the same old printer models released 10 years ago then you would not want your ink supply to be changed. But all Canon's printer sold today are completely different. That is a good reason that the ink gets revised and the formulation gets a technical advance. I understand your concern being a hobbyist you don't want to be impacted by the change of the ink you use. Unfortunately it is not realistic. I liked my Pentium Pro based PC. But I know I can't expect Microsoft to continue to support my Windows98. It's a machine running DOS only today if it ever gets powered up.

How many are there still using i series printers? There may be some. But old printers are mostly gone now. I don't think IS would stay where they were selling inks formulated 10 years ago. I have a hard time buying new print head for my MP830. I had to let go it to the landfill.

I started to use Hobbicolors in 2011. I can't say if there has been a change or has been changes. I just wondered if Fish was using an old version of Hobbicolor ink. That's a reasonable question. If you ask my opinion of today's Hobbicolors ink I think it is of excellent quality based on my past experience of inks from many different sources, which includes IS, Formulabs, and many unknown brand names from sellers like Weink, Atlanta Inkjet, MIS Associates, etc. This is just my opinion and is not based on scientific measurement. I know there are a lot of people loyal to their own favorite brand name only. Thanks for your understanding, Stratman.

 

[stratman]

Stratman: If Canon still sells the same old printer models released 10 years ago then you would not want your ink supply to be changed. But all Canon's printer sold today are completely different. That is a good reason that the ink gets revised and the formulation gets a technical advance. I understand your concern being a hobbyist you don't want to be impacted by the change of the ink you use. Unfortunately it is not realistic. I liked my Pentium Pro based PC. But I know I can't expect Microsoft to continue to support my Windows98. It's a machine running DOS only today if it ever gets powered up.

How many are there still using i series printers? There may be some. But old printers are mostly gone now. I don't think IS would stay where they were selling inks formulated 10 years ago. I have a hard time buying new print head for my MP830. I had to let go it to the landfill

Canon still sells BCI ink cartridges for chipless printers. My mp830 is running strong and the CLI-8 and PGI-5 OEM inks are still sold. I easily bought 2 MP830 print heads from Canon Sales about 3-4 months ago, and it was the best price I could find to boot. I think you are making assumptions not grounded in fact but in feeling. There has been no chatter about change to Canon inks for older printer models, ones that would cause significant change requiring new ICC's for color accuracy, that I am aware of any time in the recent past.

What you say about different formulations for different models is correct, but not necessarily in the broad brush strokes you seem to paint. This forum had extensive discussions on particular OEM Canon formula changes. But, not all inks changed between printer models. I don't recall the specifics but either Yellow or Magenta changed between classes of cartridges and required third party manufacturers to adjust the formula for that ink(s). The rest of the inkset was the same as the previous model.

If you were to go to Precision Colors, for instance, you will see the ink identification numbers on the bottles pictures for a particular Canon model it is sold for. Compare that with other inksets for different model printer/cartridges and you will see same inks used in general across more than one model. There are differences but it hasn't been as encompassing as you might think. I haven't looked at Hobbicolors but I imagine they function similarly. Canon did not always reinvent the wheel each time they designed a new printer.

Your comparison of printers and inks with microchips and operating systems is flawed in that a number of older printer models are still supported by the manufacturer. Go to a big box store, or look on the internet, and see brand new OEM BCI and CLI-8 cartridges for sale. Canon updated their driver software to include Windows 7 for my MP830. Canon still sells parts for my printer. Yes, one day there will not be print heads or driver updates from Canon, but for now, Canon is still supporting the printer. Same for other older models. Unless Canon is warehousing millions of cartridges for these older models, then Canon must still be making the same ink for those printers. Third party ink manufacturers will continue to manufacture older formulations of inks until at least one of the three variables i mentioned in my last post changes, or demand, change. However, a third party manufacturer, or retailer, looking to cut costs may make/stock fewer formulations. I am unaware Precision colors has done this surreptitiously. Has Hobbicolors?

Because most third party ink users do not custom make ICC printer profiles, it would behoove third party ink manufacturers to not alter formula and cause noticeable color shift/bronzing or else risk customers spending hard won dollars elsewhere. Without incentive to change formulas for an in demand ink, I doubt thoughtful manufacturers would change formulas or scrupulous retailors would covertly change inksets for the hell of it. At this time, I have no reason to think Hobbicolors or Image Specialists (via Precision Colors and Octoinkjet) are using different formulations for their compatible CLI-8 inks, at least ones requiring a new ICC printer profile that I can tell. If Presicion Colors or Octoinkjet had changed their inks for a specific inkset, I guarantee there would have been a posting frenzy on this forum after people noticed output differences.

(FYI: There once was a bad batch of a specific ink color sold that was discussed on the forum. The retailer fixed the issue with new ink at no charge. While not his fault, he probably ate some of the cost of keeping customers satisfied. Another reason we recommend certain merchants over others.)

 

[fish]

Fish: I am not questioning your judgement of Hobbicolors ink. I was very clear and asked when you tried their ink. Maybe your experience was based on an outdated version of the Canon compatible ink they sold. You seemed to have answered it. You used it quite some years ago. Am I correct?

Yes, I used Hobbicolors in 2008. Here is my post from that era.

I have tried Inktec and Hobbicolors. I found Hobbicolors dye inks very good and without clog problems. My comments are that the pigment black seems to bleed more than Inktec (with the same paper) and the colors are quite off (Canon MP830). I manually change settings - boost the Cyan, reduce magenta and yellow, and change intensity to -2. These settings give decent results. Inktec gave colors close to OEM but faded quite rapidily. I will be trying Image Specialists Pigment and dye to see how it compares.

Without profiling, the adjustments to the colors were trial and error. Although I got okay color results, switching to IS eliminated that problem. I don't understand your statement about the older Hobbicolors being outdated. They had a lot of satisfied users then (and now). Changing colors would wreak havoc among users.

My MP830 died a short while ago and was replaced with a MX850. The 830 ran flawlessly for five years with heavy usage and refilling. Regarding older Canon printers, I have a iP6000 (NIB) and a refurb 4200 in the wings waiting for use.

 

[Grandexp]

Fish: I have no doubt about your judgement of the ink you got for your mp830. I know everyone has his/her own set of criteria for the judgement of ink. I just wonder by any chance if you used an older version of the ink, which is just a thought and I have no real knowledge of the fact. I am curious why such a big difference between you and me. I am completely satisfied with the Hobbicolors inks.

I have been a heavy inkjet printer user since early 2000's. I don't think I am making a bad judgement myself. Maybe you are on one extreme and I am on the other. Have you used different brand of papers? If you do I believe you know that colors may change with some papers regardless if you use OEM or IS ink. To me because of this I see no merit of using IS ink despite that people claim that it has better color match with OEM. I don't use OEM paper. I never believe precise color match is possible.

 

[Grandexp]

Stratman: All you said are great. I almost agree with you on everything you said. However, I know for a fact that some 3rd party ink for PGI-5 actually are sold for refilling BCI-3eBK now. They don't sell the older version of the black pigment ink formulated for BCI-3eBK any more. Canon may be sticking to a same formulation but not in the case of 3rd party ink. Canon makes ink in large quantities and has no reason to change. But for 3rd party manufacturers I can think of reasons to change. Competition is one. Making improvement or fixing a flaw can be another one. If a newer technology is backward compatible that can be another reason to change.

The current IS black pigment ink for BCI-3eBK is not the same as before. There were in fact two varieties before. I used both of them. I don't remember the WJxxxx numbers any more. I paid for different prices to try them out so I know there were two different ones 5 - 6 years ago from ACSI at: http://www.oddparts.com. One was better than the other but more money for it too. Believe me IS ink has updates and revisions over the years.

 

[fish]

It is not the paper. I use Kirkland for proofs (because of ozone fading), HP, Ilford microporous, and Canon for decent prints, and Ilford swellable for keepers. For archival printing, I outsource to a lab. My monitor closely matches my prints, both from my printer and when sent out.

Other posts in 2008 indicated that there were many who liked photo printing with Hobbicolor inks and others who had similar color problems (and corrections) as myself. If you are happy with your prints, stay with what works for you. Good color match requires profiling, which I also tried.

 

[stratman]

Grandexp:

You'll note that I was discussing specifically CLI-8 formulations and not PGI formulations with respect to Hobbicolors and IS inksets in the next to last paragraph of my previous post. Changing Pigment Black in these inksets where Dye-based inks are the color palettes is much less problematic. One can change the PGI Pigment Black from one manufacturer to another without re-doing the ICC printer profile. The same can not be said for the CLI Dye-based inksets if optimal color accuracy is desired.

We also should be careful when referring to third party ink manufacturers. Most, such as the "universal" types, are probably crap whose formulations may change like a baby's diaper. There is a reason to purchase from certain suppliers - quality and consistency. My discussion concerns only premium third party inks mentioned. As I said, if the formulations of the inks changed enough to cause visible color accuracy drift or bronzing, let alone differences via photospectrometer findings, then someone in the forum would probably would have reported it. Of course the obstacle then is knowing whether changes noted are due to a planned reformulation or something else.

If you have information or a reasoned argument about IS ink then please present. I have not followed Hobbicolors over the years but more information is welcome as well. To be clear, this concerns dye-based inks and not the single pigment black used for text. I have no idea about pigment ink only printers and their formulations over the years.

Maybe someone on the forum can post their knowledge of changes to OEM or premium third party ink formulations for a given inkset over the past several years.