Is clogging an issue changing from pigment to dye based ink?

[Tin Ho]

Don't forget sometimes shadow may not be gray at all. And most times shadow is dark. Most importantly the gray ink has nothing to do with color balance of the color photo. False information among daily forum posts is common. Just wanted to point that out. Any different thoughts are welcome.

By the way, Black IS one of the ink used in printing color photos. Why does Pro9900 use a CLI-8BK? It is for printing dark black shadow. If the shadow is supposed to have a tint it adds color ink to print it. The gray ink is for printing light gray tones in a photo. Honestly my Pro9000 prints light gray just fine without the gray ink. I will argue that it only helps when you print black and white photos.

In the world of pigment based photo inks, there is a need for gray ink because pigment black ink has a very small gamut. It alone is not able to reproduce light gray. But dye based ink is different. A dedicated gray does make a difference. The difference is not as significant as in the case of pigment based inks. The benefit of having a dye based gray ink is limited although can be appreciated. If you print black and whit photos you will appreciate it for not to worrying about color tint in gray.

 

[The Hat]

Tin Ho False information among daily forum posts is common. Just wanted to point that out. Any different thoughts are welcome.

As I cant add or say anything that will make you change your ideas about the use of grey in colour photos,
then please also remember that black is not a primary colour in the make-up of B&W photos either C, M, Y are..

 

[Tin Ho]

Most importantly the gray ink has nothing to do with color balance of the color photo. False information among daily forum posts is common. Just wanted to point that out.

That is what I wanted to point out. I wasn't saying you gave false information. If you feel that I pointed my finger at you I apologize.

The additional gray ink for MP990 is not a factor to better (or not) color balance of the printer. It is added to aid in black and white photo printing, as Canon web site advocates. I disagree that it is a must have printer for photo printing. My observation is that Canon makes it cheap because it has had fewer buyers than they have hoped. The additional gray ink actually has caused people to steer clear of it, especially for people who has no specific need for black and white printing. If you don't print black and white photos why waste money in the ink that is only used in keeping the gray ink nozzles clean? It is a good color printer. But there are many excellent Canon color printers that do not use a gray ink. You will regret having to deal with the gray ink cartridge that is of little use to you.

 

[mikling]

I would not have believed it until I went out and obtained and purchased an MP980 to compare against the iP4600 and iP4820 in my stable.

Hands up for those who have tried printers with the gray inks and directly compared it to their counterparts without the gray inks and then profiled both families of printers with high quality paper and compared output.

My initial impressions were counter to this finding until I went out and paid money to use the MP980 printer and the gray inks are in fact a good addition to the CLI-221 inkset which again is in fact very different from the BCI-6 and CLI-8 inkset.

Here is another thought for the speculators. In the past, Canon used to offer models like the iP3000, 3300, 3500 CMY printers. Why is it in this generation ( CLI-221/226) that the iP3600 has become a CMY+K printer? I could not find any models sporting the CLI-221 inkset that just uses CMY. Maybe there is an euro model that I am not aware of.

Is there something unique about the CLI-221 colors that somehow really needs a K for some reason, was the inkset designed to ideally use a black or blacks ?

Has anyone directly compared the OEM colors from the real CLI-221 inkset against that from the CLI-8 in a serious fashion on a direct hands on basis?

There is something going on here and it has a parallel in the Epson R1900 and R1800 as well. The addition of the orange ink made the R1900 wickedly good in fleshtones. The addiition of the gray inks in the 980 series made the 980 able to take on subtle shadow details very well with nary a hint of casts and seems less sensitive to cast issues in the shadow areas. Furthermore all color ramps are deliciously smooth and there are no tonal changes as we get darker. We are not talking of simple refill for economy sake here, we are looking at the output from a critical standpoint beyond the economy/ease of refilling. The 4600 and 4820 in comparison to the 980 does not have the same ability to create the darker tones of colors before it starts to shift to a color that is too dark. Admittedly very few users are going to take the trouble to assess the differences, and in fact for many, the shift to a darker tone quicker will possibly give an impression of a sharper punchier picture until the 980 steps up and in comparison with a calibrated screen, you then see the inaccuracy of the 4600/4820 relative to the 980. It is not a case that the 4600/4820 is bad, rather the 980/990 is actually rather really good. That; should be appreciated.

 

[The Hat]

mikling The 980/990 is actually rather really good. That; should be appreciated.

I couldnt agree more.
Thanks mikling...

 

[Tin Ho]

OK, why don't we take a look at the CNET review of MP980. It's not me against you guys. Here are a few words found in their review:

The good: Space-saving design; robust software; interactive LCD menu; dual-paper feeds; fast graphics and photo prints; auto-duplexer included.
The bad: Poor print quality; expensive; no fax machine; flimsy paper cassette; slow text output speed; unreliable wireless performance; unique gray ink can be hard to find.

What a surprise, POOR PRINT QUALITY. I also quickly looked at CENT review of IP5000. Here are what they said:

The good: Autoduplex printing; easy to operate; Mac and Windows compatible; excellent text and graphics quality.
The bad: No built-in networking.

Note the words: EXCELLENT TEXT QUALITY AND GRAPHICS QUALITY.

MP980 got a 6.0 out of 10 rating in performance from the editor. The ip5000 got a 8.0. Well, maybe this is just one man's view of the two printers. We should read reviews from users. MP980 got 2.5 stars out of 5 based on 23 user reviews. IP5000 get 4 stars out of 5 from 81 user reviews.

The CNET reviews can be found here:
http://reviews.cnet.com/multifuncti...a-mp980/4505-3181_7-33264900.html#reviewPage1
http://reviews.cnet.com/inkjet-printers/canon-pixma-ip5000/4505-3156_7-31091201.html#reviewPage1

By the way, I was not refuting about the photo printing quality of MP980 and MP990. Could any of you comment on the issue about what the additional gray ink do to the color balance of color photos?

 

[The Hat]

Tin Ho OK, why don't we take a look at the CNET review of MP980. It's not me against you guys. Here are a few words found in their review:
By the way, I was not refuting about the photo printing quality of MP980 and MP990.
Could any of you comment on the issue about what the additional gray ink do to the color balance of color photos?

Nobody is against anybody here but I think youll find that mikling explained how well the grey works with colour photos below.

mikling
The addiition of the gray inks in the 980 series made the 980 able to take on subtle shadow details very well with nary a hint of casts and seems less sensitive to cast issues in the shadow areas. Furthermore all color ramps are deliciously smooth and there are no tonal changes as we get darker. We are not talking of simple refill for economy sake here, we are looking at the output from a critical standpoint beyond the economy/ease of refilling. The 4600 and 4820 in comparison to the 980 does not have the same ability to create the darker tones of colors before it starts to shift to a color that is too dark. Admittedly very few users are going to take the trouble to assess the differences, and in fact for many, the shift to a darker tone quicker will possibly give an impression of a sharper punchier picture until the 980 steps up and in comparison with a calibrated screen, you then see the inaccuracy of the 4600/4820 relative to the 980. It is not a case that the 4600/4820 is bad, rather the 980/990 is actually rather really good. That; should be appreciated.

As for how good or bad a review can be take a look at the excellent review done by PC World and then say if you agree with it or not, I most certainly dont.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=43903#p43903

So I reckon the best way of convincing yourself is to try-out a printer with the grey on board and then come back to us with your comments and observations.
The standard 3 & 4 colour printers cant really cut it anymore for the want to be perfectionist photographers
thats probably why the count is up to twelve colours, but that doesnt make the 3 & 4 colour printers
out to be poor at print quality neither, there just not in the same ball park.

 

[mikling]

Unfortunately, let us take some dose of reality here. As good as the iP5000 was in its day. I must stress "in its day" it is somewhat fortunate that I had profiled an MP780 ( similar BCI-6 generation as the iP5000 ) immediately after using the MP980. It is after that exercise that my impressions were actually more grounded. For many I can still see the iP5000 as being all that they would need but that is not the point.

I will grant you that the iP5000 is a very good printer and excellent in its day. However, technology has moved on. Similarly, the model T was also a great vehicle when it was made but certainly would not sell in today's market. This is the risk when one reads reviews from past expired products to make a judgment of a newer product especially in technology related items and printers are certainly in that category. With newer technology and increased performance our expectations are raised. What was excellent five years ago might now be an average performance. Let us keep that in mind. An excellent case in point is this. The Epson R2100 was a groundbreaking pigment ink printer when it was introduced and many artists immediately flocked to it. It garnered excellent reviews. Should I read this review today, I might think that it is as good as the newer R2880 two generations newer aand is not groundbreaking. Well if you did not know that the R2880 is actually two generations newer, you'd think they both were equal or even the R288o inferior. It is not.

" So I reckon the best way of convincing yourself is to try out a printer with the grey on board and then come back to us with your comments and observations." per the Hat and I this is what I did to come to my conclusion.

 

[Tin Ho]

I just looked at the CNET review of the MP980 again. I wasn't looking for words said by the editor but words by users. Here are the two latest entries of user comments:

This printer sucks!!! Worst product ever! Rated 1 star out of 5

Ink Monster. Rated 1.5 star out of 5

Canon should hire you guys to do the marketing for this printer. The user comments on the CNET review of this printer certainly will scare most people away. I think you guys can turn it around. But don't forget that the verdict is determined by jurors, not by the judge, not by me, nor by you. There are 23 user comments for MP980. The rating is a poor 2.5. The model T did not get such a poor rating when it was introduced. I have a serious doubt about your recommendation that it is a must have printer. This makes me feel that while the jurors say guilty the judge says not.

Well, this is really not the subject of my entry to this thread. I wonder why adding a gray ink it cures the color balance issue. By telling me how great M)980 is you are not answering the question. By telling me the evolution of Epson pigment based printers you are changing the course of the subject.

I would like to learn why a grey ink can cure the color balance issue of all other printers that do not have one. I don't print black and white photos, except I may try a few during the life time of my printer. I know this printer will print perfectly gray shadows but very often the shadows in my pictures have a blue tint. I don't really want the printer to turn the shadow from bluish to perfectly gray. It is not supposed to be gray in the first place. A color balance issue is not about the shadows not being gray. The color balance issue has something to do with skin tone being orange or a white shirt being bluish, a sky being orange or a blue lagoon being purple.

 

[Tin Ho]

You can eye ball a color balance issue of a print and confirm it by checking out its histogram. A gray ink's presence is not going to fix it. As Canon advertised the gray ink makes MP980/MP990 a better monochrome printer for people who wants to print black and white. Canon did not advertize that it is a better color printer because of the additional gray ink tank.

Printers using pigment based inks have gray tank and/or matte black ink tanks for a totally different reason. Ideally they need to have different intensity of Cyan, Magenta and probably Yellow too.