How long before a depleted Canon Oem cartridge goes stale?

[Osage]

After some research I concluded to go with a new Canon ip4000 for economy reasons for my wife. My initial strategy was to use the OEM cartridges furnished and then replace those with dirt cheap third party cartridges.

After some time on this forum I decided to try refilling my own cartridges--and also bought a refurbished MP730 for myself.--so I simply ordered a four and a five color hobbicolors kits. Which gave me exactly enough empty hobbicolors cartridges to populate each printer with exactly zero spares.--and now what to do to create a collection of at least one spare each in all five of the ip4000 cartridge set is the current question.

I do have quite a few full unused third party cartridges, and all depleted Canon OEM cartridges.--as well as one recently depleted third party cartridge. Stupidly I did not save all the wing nuts to cap the ink outlet hole.------so I am sitting on five depleted canon OEM blanks----some run to low ink warning six months ago--and then capped with a wing nut except in one case where I had no wing nut. I have today created an ink inlet hole and fitted a screw and 0-ring seal to all these depleted Canon OEM cartridges.

The question is can I safely refill these or should I do the full grandad and backflush them with water to clean them out????? After all it's been six months and this was not in the plans then. Or can I just go ahead and refill them and be pretty confident they will work?--here is where the experience I don't have and others have is valuable.

And I still have quite a few unused cartridges from bulkinkjetcarts.com-------when they get to a level of about 20% left in the reserve tank---I am likely to pull them--drill them for an ink inlet hole--and then refill them--and follow that up with a screw & O-ring seal.-----which I should 20-20 hindsight have done to my Canon OEMs----but am asking if any has experiences on how well these cartridges from bulkinkjetcarts.com take to refilling?

But assuming my initial set from hobbicolors hold up over time, all I have to come up with is just one set of spares.

 

[drc023]

Back flushing would certainly be a good idea, but in all likelihood the OEM tanks are OK to refill without any problems. At most there would be some dried ink on the outlet filter material. If so, then rinsing that area will dissolve any dried ink. I've refilled empty cartridges older than that without any problems. This isn't a 'do as I do' recommendation, but I take only minimal precautions (closer to printer abuse) and haven't had any problems.

 

[fotofreek]

drc023 has more experience than I with refilling, multiple printers, and various brands of carts and gives excellent advice. He mentions that he takes minimal precautions. I, on the other hand, probably spend too much time preparing for the possibilities that may never happen! My preference would be to take an hour and do the "full Granddad" on all the old used carts you wish to use. It is a real Pain in the butt to put in a cart that gets glitchy and then wonder if it is the cart, the printhead, or the printer. The OEM carts wash out really well and work like new again when refilled. My guess is that drc's approach will work most of the time with no problems, while I will waste a fair amount of time for a slightly better chance of avoiding a problem. Bottom line is that if you just fill them and put them in the printer the worst case is that if they don't work well you can then go to plan B and wash them out.

 

[Osage]

Taking the advive of drc023, I decided to go ahead and refill the three existing Canon OEM cartridges I had and had run to the point of the low ink warning. Some had been out of the printer for up to six months, but had their ink outlet hole capped by the wing nut immediately when they were removed from the printer--except in the case of the BCI-6 cyan where the wing nut may have fallen off for some unknown time. The other cartridges were BCI-6 magenta & yellow. All three cartridges were drilled and fitted with screw and o-ring by me a few days ago.--at no point after use did I seal the air vent with tape on any of the three depleted cartridges.

A close examination of all three showed a totally empty reserve tank. The top part of the Canon OEM sponge showed their very faded original colors with parts of the top sponge showing totally white, meaning no OEM ink had ever saturated them. The bottom OEM sponge showed the slightly darker OEM sponge showing what I assume is a greater amount of still liquid OEM ink--and the bottom sponge seemed to show a uniform color, lighter than it was originally but with no top to bottom color change.

On my BCI-6 magenta, I left the wing nut on the ink outlet hole in place, removed the screw over the ink inlet hole, and sucked 7 ml of hobbicolor ink into a syringe. I injected that 7 ml of ink into the reserve tank which came close to filling the reserve tank. After about a minute or so the ink level in the reserve tank dropped and stabilized at about 30% full.----the bottom OEM sponge showed a darker uniform magenta color-----but what disturbed me was the fact that the top sponge also showed uniform absorbtion---with no remaining white areas where the initial OEM ink had failed to saturate. At that point I placed tape over the air vent and injected about 3 ml more ink into the reserve tank filling it to about 80% full. I then replaced the screw and o-ring. I then removed the wing nut over the ink outlet hole and found no dripping but a slight squeeze forced ink through. Blotting with a paper towel showed ink in non-liquid form was on the sponge over the ink outlet hole.---I then replaced the wing nut and set the cartridge aside for storage.

My cyan cartridge was the next one----same similar 7 ml added to reserve tank---but this time I immediately taped the air vent at first sign of the ink starting to penetrate the dead white areas of the top sponge. But taping the air vent did not stop further ink penetration.--and again the dead white areas were gone as the ink slowly penetrated all areas of the top sponge.---and again adding another 3 ml of ink filled the reserve tank to about 80% at which time I put the screw and o-ring back into the ink inlet hole.----same results when I removed the wing nut--no dripping--and a slight cartridge squeeze readily forced ink through--but just a quick paper towel blot removed all liquid ink off the ink outlet hole. So I again replaced the wing nut and set aside for future use.

My yellow cartridge was more alarming----after the addition of 7 ml of ink into the reserve tank, the same sponge re-saturation occured. Followed by immediate dripping from the ink outlet hole even though the wing nut was left on----nor did the dripping even slow---but replacing the screw and o-ring caused the dripping to immediately stop.-------working faster this time, I removed the ink inlet screw over the original ink inlet hole I had previously drilled, filled the reserve tank to about 80%, and replaced the screw and o-ring.--plus taped the air inlet hole--at that point I removed the ink outlet wing nut and again found just a light paper towel blot was all that was needed to remove any trace of liquid ink from the ink outlet hole. So I again re-secured the wing nut and set the yellow cartridge aside for later use.------a 24 hour later re-examination of the yellow cartridge showed no further leakage of ink.

But the question in my mind is why is the top Canon sponge showing total ink saturation when the initial OEM fill left dead white areas of sponge that did not saturate? Could it be that hobbicolors ink shows better than OEM saturation or am I doing something wrong?

But I do know that all of my virgin empty hobbicolor blanks exhibited similar sponge saturation on first fill, some are now in my printers, and show flaw free performance and nozzle checks. But none of them dripped excessively from the ink outlet hole prior to ink inlet hole screw replacement.

I have also refilled a BCI-3ebk cartridge that was depleted but this is a blank I had bought from bulkinkjetcarts. So all I now lack in a complete spare set is a BCI-6 photoblack---but still running on my OEM blank with about 20% in the reserve tank.--I will pull and replace that with a hobbicolor blank when I get more o-rings. But will also wait for feedback on any flaws in my technique--and also ask if I can trust the yellow cartridge that dripped so badly prior to capping the ink inlet hole.

 

[fotofreek]

The dripping of the yellow cart when, after filling, the fill hole and exit ports are open is a good sign. When you replace the screw in the fill hole the dripping should slow and then stop if the fill hole seal is good. A bit of blotting (towel paper on a flat surface so you don't blot the filter in the outlet port) and capping the outlet completes the operation. I'd be more concerned if I filled a cart and, with the fill and outlet holes unsealed, I didn't get some dripping. The proof will be when you install them and see how they work. A normal "healthy" cart will drip if you try to fill it without capping the outlet port.

 

[Osage]

Thanks for the prompt answer fotofreek,

But I am still wondering about is it normal for the top sponge areas that were not saturated on the initial Canon OEM fill to become readily saturated on first refill--and also asking if this happens with just hobbicolors inks or with other brand inks as well.

'But the proof will lie in putting in these refilled cartridges and trying them out--may be awhile. But I pretty well have my first spare set already. With enough cartrridges to create at least another full spare set when I use up my remaining bulkinkjetscarts unused cartridges. Will be smarter this time and pull and refill before I get close to a low ink warning.

Overall comment----Refilling these Canon OEM and third party cartridges is really easy. With the added bonus that you can look inside and see what the ink is doing. I would assume the only danger signs of over filling would be a too full reserve tank, liquid ink showing above the air gap between the top of the sponge and the top surface of the cartridge, or a cartridge that drips after the ink inlet hole is sealed.

And a cartridge that is not feeding correctly showing up in lack of reliable ink delivery--with a good hope that a full grandad flush can get it back to normal.

With some hope that I won't have to spend another printer dime on anything other than paper for a long time to come.

 

[fotofreek]

I don't know the answer to the top sponge issue in OEM carts. Granddad dissected one to evaluate the two sponges. As I recall, they are of different densities. Other carts only have one sponge and seem to work equally as well. In refilling OEM carts I've found that the top accepts the inks less well as more refills are done. After a backflush both sponges become saturated well again. I am using MIS inks. I don't know if Hobbicolors inks would behave much differently unless they have more surfactant in them. The empty HC cart sponges sop up the ink instantaneously! On these I found that filling them in a hurry led to ink filling the sponge and some of the space above the sponge - do them slowly and don't let that happen. Watch the saturation of the sponge area carefully and stop when it is just saturated.

 

[Osage]

Now I am totally confused on this do it slowly bit----Be it a Canon OEM cartridge of a hobbicolor empty blank---in BCI-6 you have two sections---an empty reserve tank with about 7 ml capacity and a sponge section that can absorb about 7 ml of ink. So you inject some initial amount of ink into the reserve tank, at which point the sponge section starts absorbing the ink from the reserve tank side--I assume by capillary effect--to the sponge section side--and in the case of the virgin hobbicolor blanks--and following their instructions---I injected 8 ml of ink into the reserve tank---slow enough not to foam or super slow--it does not seem to matter---about seven of those ml's transferred to the sponge side within about a minute. Leaving little or no ink in the reserve tank---at which point the hobbicolors instruction said to seal the air vent above the sponge side.---and then inject enough ink to fill the reserve tank 80-90 % full--replace the ink inlet hole screw--and done with initial fill.

As I mentioned in earlier post in this thread---when it comes to refilling a depleted cartridge--be it a Canon OEM or a depleted hobbicolor cartridge----one can assume about 3.5 ml of ink is left in the sponge section.--------but by slowly did you imply that I perhaps should have injected less than the 6 ml I did into the reserve tank?-----but as I mentioned, in all three depleted Canon OEM cartridges an intitial ink injection at a rate slow enough not to foam in the reserve tank resulted in the slow transfer of ink into the sponge section--and stabilized after about a minute leaving me with a perhaps over saturated sponge and with remaining ink in the reserve side. But, as I noted, on one cartridge, I capped the air vent above the sponge BEFORE the ink totally saturated the sponge. Yet the sponge kept absorbing ink until it looked like the other cartridges.---with some remaining ink in the reserve tank and perhaps an over saturated sponge. ----and then the refilling process is completed by topping of the reserve tank to 80% full and sealing the ink inlet hole.

So let me explore what I think you might have meant by slower refilling of a depleted cartridge----lets say that instead of injecting 6 ml of ink in the reserve side, I just injected 2 ml---which in theory would result in all the reserve tank ink transferring to the sponge side----and given the sponge side had 3.5 ml or more---would leave less than seven ml of ink in the sponge side--and an undersaturated sponge.--and for the sake of argument I then continue to inject ever smaller additional ink increments until I am left with an empty reserve tank but with a sponge that shows say 80% ink infusion--and the top 10-20 % of the sponge is significantly lighter in color. At which point I seal the air vent above the sponge section.-----then the final step is to fill the reserve tank to 80% and seal the ink inlet hole.

But now I have additional ink in the reserve tank---what prevents the sponge from absorbing some of that ink from the reserve tank so I arrive at the same condition--a possibly over saturated sponge? The only control parameter seems to be the air vent above the sponge section being sealed or unsealed. And in the one case where I sealed it, it seemed to have zero effect on continued ink absorbtion into the sponge.

So at this point I am somewhat confused---the only way to avoid a totally color saturated sponge seems to be to not fill the reserve tank after a proper 80% sponge saturation point is reached.

 

[fotofreek]

Osage - No need to worry through each step. I only suggested that you go slowly so that when you have the sponge nearly saturated and continue filling the reservoir you inject slowly enough so that you can see that ink doesn't go above the sponge in the sponge compartment. I didn't bother to put the tape over the vent hole when I did the first fill of the HC carts. Still worked fine! From what you've described in your posts on this thread, you are doing everything right.

 

[Grandad35]

I have 4 different cart designs in my rotation:
Canon OEM
OldInkgrabber
NewInkgrabber (G&G)
WiredBeans.

The only benefit that I see in filling slowly is that you minimize any mess. Since I refill in a stainless sink and ink leaks don't bother me, I average about 15 seconds to inject the ink into a cart, including completely saturating the sponge and completely filling the ink chamber.

Some carts (e.g. WiredBeans) fill the sponge almost immediately if you tip the cart forward slightly while injecting into the ink chamber. In fact, it is easy to have ink come out of the vent port on these carts if you aren't careful. Aside from the extra mess while refilling, I have never had a problem due to "overfilled carts", and I feel that I can print more photos between refills by completely filling the carts.

On carts that don't wick the ink into the sponges as quickly, I fill the ink chamber about 1/2 full, then bottom the base of the needle on the refill hole to form a seal. This allows pressure to build in the ink chamber as additional ink is injected, forcing ink into the sponge. Once the sponge is saturated, lift the needle to break the seal and finish filling the ink chamber. I definitely recommend wearing old clothes if you use this technique.

My guess as to why new Canon carts don't have the top sponge fully saturated is that they use a vacuum refilling system to inject ink through the fill port into an evacuated cart, and that they "short-shot" it with less ink than the cart can actually handle. This will completely fill the ink chamber and the excess ink will be absorbed into the sponge. Since there is less excess ink than the sponge is capable of absorbing, only the bottom of the sponge gets filled. If they injected an additional CC into the sponge, the carts would last longer and they would sell fewer replacements.