How long before a depleted Canon Oem cartridge goes stale?

[Osage]

Thanks again for a prompt response fotofreek,

I do believe your conclusion that I am doing things correctly is right. Given two facts.
(1) Even though the refilled cartridge sponge shows 100% color infusion when using hobbicolors ink, zero liquid ink shows in the air gap between the top of the sponge and the top of the cartridge body.--which in my mind means that the sponge will absorb as much ink as possible without over saturating (2) No ink drips from the ink outlet hole after the ink inlet hole is sealed.

But as I write this post I see grandad35 has weighed in and removed some more doubt in my mind.------and that the difference in sponge color infusion in the 80-90% sponge color infusion of an OEM or a third party prefilled cartridge and the 100% sponge saturation I experience is likely due to the probability that a refilling through the ink outlet hole method is used. And the resulting cartidge may be somewhat shorted in ink content.

But I still am puzzled why such a cartridge refilled through the ink inket would not over a short time allow ink to be absorbed into the sponge from the reserve tank.--100% color saturating the sponge--even if sealing the air vent prevented that process---when the tape is removed from the air vent and the cartridge is inserted into the printer--would not that absorbtion into the sponge process then restart and result in a 100% color saturated sponge in a matter of a minute or so?

The alternate hypothesis might be that hobbicolors ink just saturate the sponge better.

But whatever---maybe I am just trying to understand the psychology of a depleted
canon cartridge-----that has magically been resurrected from the dead---and succeeding in only driving myself crazy.

But as I mull over that last sentence, I think I now finally understand the difference in refill methods-------in the vacuum fill through the ink outlet hole the ball above the reserve tank only allows air out as ink replaces the air---whereas in home refilling methods the ink inlet hole the user creates and later seals allows air both in or out of the reserve tank during the refill process.--resulting in a vacuum in the reserve tank that prevents the sponge from being able to as readily absorb ink from the reserve tank in the former case of vacuum fill through the ink outlet hole method. Which would also perfectly explain the difference in sponge color infusion between the two methods.-----with 100% color infusion actually the ideal case.

 

[hpnetserver]

Osage, I have 2 Hobbicolors refill kits for my ip8500. The cartridges in the 2nd kit are different from the first kit. The instructions are different as well. The instruction from the first kit said to fill ink just about as much as you can. So when I got my 2nd kit I did the same thing assuming they are the same although I noticed that the carts are different. The carts from the 2nd kit leaked badly. Some ink actually dripped down onto my paper. That prompted me to read the instruction from the 2nd kit. That's when I realized that the carts are more sensitive to overfill. The newer carts have a whiter sponge which look not as dense as the old ones. By the time I realized that, I have had the entire sponge of all my carts overfilled. I took all of them out and one by one I squeezed the carts to get rid of some ink from them. After that they all worked flawlessly. So apparently Hobbicolors knew about it and gave specific instruction as to how to fill ink to avoid overfilling. I believe Canon OEM cartridges do not fully saturate their carts for the same reason. So the sure way to not overfill is to make sure some sponge is left empty white. If you can see white sponge at the top you know it's not overfilled. Now that all my cartriges are completely colored already, what I do is to fill as much ink as I can then at the end just force some ink out of them. They all work flawlessly. If you wash your car with a sponge you can squeeze a dripping sponge and see dripping stops.
I think that's the reason behind the instruction why the carts should not be overfilled. The sponge in the cartridge works like that too. When ink is depleted to a point air will find a path to enter the reservoir tank to release some ink into the sponge to replenish it. This will continue until the reservoir tank is empty. These carts work so well that from full to empty they just never give any problems.

My point is don't worry about saturating the sponge. Just get rid of some ink by squeezing at the end of filling or refilling the cartridge. It is perfectly fine to completely infuse the sponge. These cartridges are better than the older one I think. Ink is more free to flow and less likely to clog.

 

[Osage]

To Hpnetserver,

Thank you for weighing in and giving the information that there have been two types of hobbicolors cartridges. Since my virgin blanks were ordered fairly recently, and had a very white appearing virgin sponge, I assume I got the latter type. But another test might be in the instructions, my instruction sheet suggesting filling a virgin BCI-6 blank with 8 ml of ink-----and then taping over the air vent.
And then filling the reserve tank 80-90% full.

While the initial thread title concerned the question of how long a depleted Canon OEM cartridge could be removed from the printer before it was no longer safe to refill, it has somewhat morfed into a question of what CONTROL a refiller has to prevent the sponge in a hobbicolors virgin blank---or for that matter a depleted Canon OEM cartridge------from 100% color saturating---leaving no white unsaturated area.

As I reported in another thread, following the hobbicolors instructions to the letter,
injecting 8 ml of ink into the reserve tank, produced an empty reserve tank and a 100% color saturated sponge in about a minute with both the ink inlet hole and the air vent open also.----on a N of 7 out of 7 BCI-6 virgin blanks in my two kits. Subsequent taping of the air vent, and the addition of about 6 to 7 Ml of ink filled the reserve tank about 80% full. Then capping the ink inlet hole with the nylon screw completes the refill process. ---with all cartridges showing 100% color saturation in the sponge---and zero liquid ink showing in the air gap above the sponge and below the cartridge top surface. With 20 20 hindsight regret, I did not remove the ink outlet wing nut as that proved messy to remove after the cartridge was filled---even though the instructions implied leave it on until time to use. But I now have some of these hobbicolors cartridges in my printer---I did--as you recommended give them a slight squeeze to make sure that ink was feeding out the ink outlet and that the dripping immediately stopped when the pressure was off and the air inlet was open.------and also got flawless nozzle patterns.-------so I assume I did it right but the puzzle is the big DISCONNECT is that the hobbicolors instructions say I should have 80% sponge color saturation--and I and others report 100% in the cold light of reality.

Then I went on to later refill three depleted Canon OEM blanks---in cyan, magenta, and yellow. When new, their top sponge shows areas where the OEM canon ink did not 100% color saturate.---but grandad35 weighed in suggesting this was partly due to a different refill process through the ink outlet hole and also partly due to Canon shorting the cartridge of ink.

Since the hobbicolors instructions were basically silent on how to refill a depleted already used cartridge---I opted to initially just inject 6 ml of ink into the reserve tank.--but I do note the alotofthings.com instructions say inject 11 ml.---but now there is somewhat a different matter here---while a virgin sponge contains no ink, a depleted cartridge sponge probably still contains 3.5 ml of ink or so if run to low ink warning.

So I injected 6 ml into the reserve tank on the first cartridge--ink outlet hole capped, ink inlet hole open and air vent open.-----in a minute or so the Canon OEM sponge lower and upper sections were 100% color saturated. But this time, instead of totally emptying the reserve tank, the ink level in the reserve tank dropped to about 20-30% full and quit dropping-----which I conclude is due to the sponge drinking up all the ink it can and no more. I taped over the air vent--filled the reserve tank to 80% full, and sealed the ink inlet hole. No dripping from the ink outlet hole when I uncapped it and no liquid ink showed in the air gap above the sponge. A slight squeeze forced ink through the ink outlet hole--it dripped a few times and then stopped.

On the second cartridge and same conditions I experimented--this time I injected the same 6 ml of initial ink, but well short of the point of 100% sponge color
ink infusion, I sealed the air vent----which had exactly zero effect---ink continued to wick into the sponge until it too was 100% color saturated and the ink level in the reserve tank stopped dropping.------so I have to conclude that the air vent above the sponge is not a CONTROL factor by itself---nor can it be if you logically think about it---any sponge saturating retarding effect it may have had is removed when you remove the tape covering the air vent when you put the cartridge into the printer---but again I then filled the reserve tank to 80%, sealed the ink outlet hole, and visually and performance tested the cartridge.
A slight squeeze forced ink out the ink outlet, dripping stopped quickly, and no liquid ink showed above the sponge. Refilling the third cartridge produced the same end result but the cartridge did drip quite a bit through the ink outlet hole but the dripping immediately stopped when the ink inlet hole was sealed by screw and o-ring.---nor has it leaked further in storage after a period of many days now. I do strongly suspect I will have no performance problems with these refilled depleted cartridges or my first filled hobbicolor blanks.

I also note that grandad35's post seems to indicate that this condition of 100% sponge saturation is a more desirable state.--and grandad 35 goes on to state that in some blanks he will go as far as actually using the top of the syringe to actually prevent air from going out the ink inlet hole and the resulting extra pressure will better saturate the sponge and in some cases force ink out the air inlet hole.

But given all that, nearly all instructions I read post dire warnings about overfilling.
And I believe Hpnetserver and others are correct, you can test for that by seeing there is no liquid ink in the air gap above the sponge and using a slight squeeze to force ink out the ink outlet hole--if the dripping totally stops rapidly the cartridge can be presumed to be not overfilled.

BUT THE END QUESTION IS-------what controls in the refill by ink inlet hole method exist to prevent the sponge from just absorbing ink from the reserve tank until the sponge just gets 100% color saturated?----maybe some sponges are dense enough to stop short of 100% color infusion, but I report not with a hobbicolors virgin blank, not with a recently depleted Canon OEM cartridge, and not using hobbicolors ink.

The only thing I have not yet tried is being far faster getting the ink inlet hole sealed-----not the very leisurely few minutes I am using but the 15 seconds or so grandad35 seems to use.

 

[hpnetserver]

Wow, what a long post. Osage, all my Hobbicolors cartridges have been refilled without following Hobbicolors instructions because I was lazy to read it. Every sponge is 100% colored by ink already. I believe the reason the instruction tells to not saturate the sponge to 100% by leaving some at the top in dry white state is to make sure the cartridge is not overfilled. But even if the sponge is fully colored it is still very possible it is not overfilled.

I did not read the instruction when I got my second refill kit. I assume it would be the same as the previous kit. So I just filled the carts as much as I felt like to. Every sponge was completely filled and you could tell there was too much ink in there. But utill I experienced the terrible banding I never suspected that it was a mistake. The banding was so bad that I could easily jumped into a conclusion that the stuff did not work. It was a few drops of ink on the paper that made me think maybe I filled too much ink. Then I read the instruction and sure enough there was the warning about overfilling. Well, if there was too much ink in them how about removing some of them? So I squeezed them and sure enough all of them worked flawlessly ever since.

I think the best technique to refill HC cartridges is to overfill them, and at the end squeeze them to reduce the ink in them before use. The carts will have more ink in them and will last longer before next refill.

Your end question is interesting. I believe the answer is atomsphere pressure. By closing the vent ink can no longer move into the sponge from the reserve tank because of pressure build up in the sponge. When the fill hole is sealed the ink won't move into the sponge either even the vent is opened again. This is because of vacuum in the reserve tank. The ink will come out of reserve tank and move into the sponge again only when ink in the sponge is consumed and air penetrates the sponge and finds a passage into the reserve tank. When air enters the reserve tank it exchanges and releases ink into the sponge.

Once experienced it typically took me a few minutes to refill one cartridge. Definitely less than 5 minutes and longer than 2 minutes. It is faster to overfill then squeeze at the end. In my opinion HC's instruction should be replaced with this technique I use. It is easier.

 

[Osage]

Thank you Hpnetserver for the responce,

I believe you are right and quickly sealing the ink inlet hole may prevent the sponge from just absorbing ink from the reserve tank until it can absorb no more. Clearly the capillary force of the sponge is much greater than the gravational force of the ink with less than an inch of hydralic head behind it.

But next time I refill a cartridge, I can see a number of ways to test that idea.--all of them variants of inject ink fast and then put a finger over the ink inlet hole. Forcing capillary action of the sponge to fight a vacuum in the reserve tank.

I also agree witth your squeeze out some ink prior to use method to test the cartridge. For the record Dave at hibbicolors recommend it also. But I also note that if no retarding force exists---all ink squeezed out would be rapidly replaced by ink in the reserve tank. By evidently even though one has a sponge 100% color infused, its does not appear as the instruction says its should, never the less, these cartridges preform flawlessly.--and that is one bottom line to look at.

I am sorry about the overly long previous post----and the fact that I am so dogedly pusueing the point in search for an answer. But its sure helping a refilling newby like me to understand and if it helps someone else its a greatly added bonus.-----when they discover that even though the instruction say you should arrive at a given point of sponge saturation and they arrive way past that point.
And if any others user get alarm replaced by relief---its not a bad emotional trade off.

 

[hpnetserver]

Yes the bottom line is these carts must work completely flawlessly. There maybe different refilling methods and each maybe very confusing as to how they work but as long as the carts work you want to choose the method that works consistently for you. Posts from you are good brainstorming exercises for all of us. Keep the good stuff coming. Thank you.

 

[Music Image]

Osage,
Thankyou for your posts, and even if they are long, they nonetheless help out lotsof people Im sure, and I for one have greatly enjoyed reading them, along with the responses which are also of immense value. There are very relevant issues that no doubt we will all need to face if we are to understand these things.

Heres my scenario which may be of a little bit of interest, since your initial post is relevant to this. Hopefully it will add to the knowledge base even if in some small way.

On 17-2-06 I ran my BCI3eBK empty (that is: I printed one more page of text after I had the "OUT OF INK" message) and had a OEM Cart ready to replace it, as I just hadnt had time to do my thing looking for refill kits and the like. Anyway, after earlier reading up on some advice here, I wisely have kept all my caps and proceeded to use the one for my BCI3. Upon removal of the empty cart,I immediately used the rubberband trick over the cap, ( BTW, its a good idea to keep rubberbands in the fridge otherwise they eventually perish, and theres nothing worse than a perished R/B at a crucuial moment!!!) sealed the vent with brown tape, dampened a tissue, wrapped it sort of around the cart, put it in a plastic bag, drew out as much air as possible, sealed it as best I could with another rubberband around the twist. Put it in the fridge.

I would be interested osage, how did you store yours?

At this point I THINK I remember about a 25% white unsaturated area of sponge. I may be out a little here, and Ive just checked in the fridge and inspected it, and it looks to now have about 5-10% white area left. This is probably due to the fact I didnt have it sitting upright. I notice upon inspection a couple of days ago that 2 of my other tanks are below the visibility line of inpection (about 1/2 the height of the cart) and I will have to pull them if I want to see how much is left. As such Im now trying to get my options sorted out as soon as poss.

Im keen now to look in my printer to see how much sponge is white on the other 4 tanks, but I am reticent to even turn my printer on (as I understand it, it uses ink everytime you turn it on even if you dont use it). I did a heap of text printing yesterday in draft mode and left my printer on all day, which I dont usually do, to avoid these cleaning cycles and wasting ink.

Cheers,
Music Image

 

[pebe]

Being a relative newcomer to refilling, I have followed this thread with interest. I used inkyJet replacement carts at first, but when the UK supplier changed to a new type I decided to refill myself. I have refilled the empty OEM and inkyJet carts with no problems at all, although Ive only done a total of 10 refills so far. As some people are having trouble with overfilled carts leaking I would like to offer my observations.

I read all I could including Grandads excellent experiences in another thread in this forum, to try to understand the mechanism of how the cartridge worked, and came up with this explanation.

Ignore the ink tank for the moment because the following holds true whether the tank is empty or full. From the top of the print head there is a continuous column of ink held in the sponge of the print head then up into the cartridge to the top of the sponge there. There is no pressure differential across the print head, otherwise ink would pass through it. So the top of the print head must be at atmospheric pressure. The top of the sponge in the cartridge is at the same pressure because it is vented. So the weight of ink in the column must be supported entirely by the capillary action in the sponge, and any unit height of any part of that column must support the weight of ink within it.

So if the sponge in the cartridge is of constant density from top to bottom, then it will make no difference how much the sponge is filled. It follows that if some of the leaky cartridges referred to have the same density sponge from top to bottom of the cartridge, them the sponge is not dense enough to hold the ink and the carts are faulty.

During printing, ink is used by the print head leaving a partial vacuum above it. Ink wicks down from above to fill the vacuum and replenish the ink used. The whole column of ink moves slowly down the sponge, leaving the top of the sponge drying out. The ink tank replenishes the ink as required.

The ink tank is a sealed unit except for two openings - a port at its base where ink can flow into the sponge, and in the cartridge moulding a tube is formed which links the sponge chamber about 1/2 up the sponge, to a point about 2mm from the bottom of the ink tank. The action of the ink tank can be likened to a chicken hopper used to dispense water to chickens. With ink above the level of the tube no air can get in. When the ink level falls below the tube, air can pass into the ink tank allowing ink out at the bottom into the sponge..

Two points come out from this.
1. Only enough Ink is let out of the tank to bring the level of Ink in the sponge up to just above the air tube ie. half way up, although ink can get above that level by wicking. So half way is really the working level and there is no point in filling the sponge above that point. OEM carts (Grandads findings) have a very open texture sponge above the half way point, that is not conducive to filling with ink, anyway.

I cap the outlet and leave the vent open. Then fill the tank to the half way mark. Seal the vent with masking tape (easy to remove). Then quickly fill the tank and seal it I use the O ring method. Then store with outlet cap and vent seal in place until needed.

2. Ink is taken from the bottom of the sponge to feed the head, and is replenished at the same level by the ink tank. So in theory, ink in the middle and top of the sponge is never replaced because it is never used! In fact the ink inlet and outlet are on opposite sides of the cart so there will be dispersion as the ink traverses the base of the sponge and that will cause the ink to mix. But the effect will be less towards the top and the ink there will remain fairly static.

But as ink is used, air is coming into the vent, through the sponge and into the tank. On its way it is passing static ink and is tending to dry it. If it dries, it will impede airflow. I think that may that be one reason why there appears to be a limited number of times a cart can be refilled before it stops working and needs cleaning.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Osage]

Excellent post pebe!

Still trying to digest all the implications and ways to test your contentions.
But I do comment that how long the ink inlet hole is left open during the refill process
may be another variable I don't quite understand. But I do believe you are going in the right direction in possibly deepening understanding. I also now wonder if having a two piece sponge like in a Canon OEM cartridge may be an actual detrement to making the cartridge a good refill candidate.

But I do point out that the top Canon sponge showed an excellent ability to wick up hobbicolors ink and wonder if other inks are not as easily wicked up?

And also wonder why a leaking ink inlet hole seal so screws up tbe behavoir of the cartridge.

 

[RC]

To Pebe:

You are correct about the top of the sponge getting dry and not allowing the air to flow freely.

I keep a long stainless needle next to my printer, and I find that it helps if once in a while I punch holes in the sponge from the venting hole.

I also think that there is a difference in some cartridges, and the one you should use depends on the volume that you print in one shot.

If you print lets say 30 pages or more at a time, then the AcuJet cartridge is better, for the sponge has larger air pockets, therefore allowing ink to flow faster, but if you dont use the printer all the times and do not print in volume, then the two part sponge cartridges may be your best bet. The two part cartridges have a tendency not to allow the ink to flow to the very top of the sponge, therefore not allowing the ink in the sponge to dry as fast, however, the two part cartridge does not allow the ink to flow as quickly, therefore if you print lots of copies, the cartridge may not be able to keep ink flowing as fast and as much as the print job requires.

So it is a toss up, it all depends on how much you use your printer.

Also I have noticed, just as Graddad has explained, that in most cases if you wash and flush the interior of the cartridge it will usually work just like new again.

However, in my case I purchase BCI-6 cartridges anywhere from a $1.15 to $1.85 each, not making it worth wile cleaning them, but once in a while I do clean one or two, just to experiment.

Robert