Epson XP-600 and 800 series

[mikling]

Original cartridges is the ONLY way to go with these printers When I get my OEM with the printer, I immediately make a set of standard reference images so I have a base standard. These are stored for reference and the same test images are used over and over with all printers.

 

[doom2]

I hope someone in the UK will then re-sell/distribute your ink mix... I received my ARC's from Octoinkjet today... Huge Thanks!! but not got to grips on the flushing of the epson setup carts, My Magenta just ran out with the Cyan, Yellow, Black very near but the photo black still at about 25%.

 

[websnail]

doom2 has been sending me a couple of links and one thing has stuck in my craw but been bugging me for a while until now.

http://www.octopus-office.de/en/inf...-24-26/epson-24-26-completely-new-cartridges/

The design is, as discussed almost identical to the PGI-9 with the exception of the vent/valve assembly. Now Octopus-Office seem to think the valve opens to allow air in to compensate for used ink but that's crazy as it's one way and would overpressure the cartridge forcing ink out, if the ambient temp or air pressure increased, so they've some thinking still to do.

.. but that valve design has been bothering me and I think I understand why it's there, what it does and how.

Basically, it's a mechanical release designed to fire every time the cartridge is vacuumed.. The metal plate in the "bag" is pulled against the back of the cartridge as the ink is used up and, in the case of your average commercial refiller, pulling a hard vacuum pulls the plate against the little white stick, poking out from the valve and naturally opens it. QED, you immediately get air in there. So any attempt to empty air out goes into a Catch 22 loop of nearly vacuum, valve fire, tons or air, repeat.

Thinking this through further, commercial refillers have to rinse, purge and then refill the cartridges and this sort of trick would really frustrate that sort of operation... Clever!

I've yet to look more closely at this as my empties are still on order but I'm guessing it would be possible to seal the valve shut and disable the mechanism but I have to question if there's some other trickery in the printer itself to detect that...


With all that in mind though, I wonder if normal printer usage of the cartridge would ever reach the level where it would be empty enough to trigger the valve or if that's just there to drive the remanufactured market a little bit crazy. If normal use doesn't trigger the valve then dribble refilling should be relatively simple, so self-help refillers (not commercial rinse, vac', refill operations) would be able to refill relatively unencumbered.

Anyway, bed!... 2am is definitely way past my normal curfew!

 

[mikling]

Well, obviously octopus has not read my post. I have refilled these cartridges over 100 times.
I postulated on the purpose of that valve months ago. I was partially correct and at the same time gave Epson too much credit. I then reverse engineered what the cartridge functionality was all about. It is a better engineered cartridge for sure than the PGI-9. The use of 3D pathways as Epson always had done is maintained. There are more details for the end user.

You heard it here first. Here is the real reason for the valve.

That valve is to allow the cartridge to release every single drop of ink it can into printing save for the balance for head maintenance. Not for the prevention of refilling as was first postulated by me. I was initially wrong many months ago but that is what it is. I already knew what it was up when on another thread when someone mentioned the suspicious capacities of Canon carts I pointed out that Epson is able to allow all the ink inside the cartridge to be consumed with impunity. That valve allows that.

That it could mess up manufacturers is a side benefit but the effects of the class action lawsuit that Epson lost over 5 years ago is reflected in the design. I already mentioned that the using the chip alone is not accurate enough and variances of 20% has been experienced. So the optical sensor was mandatory and less costly than the sensor previously seen in their design.

I will elaborate at a later date.

Who's telling you to flush? Not needed with the correct inks.

 

[websnail]

Who's telling you to flush? Not needed with the correct inks.

It was suggested as a means of testing the various inks available with minimal contamination between each ink set as Doom only has a single set of cartridges. Given that there are at least two ink options other than your own blend and naturally everyone claims there's is the best.

OCP for example have two different ink sets compatible with this cartridge set so plenty to try out.

Without flushing there would be no way to ensure no lingering traces of preceding inks remained, without multiple more refills than flushing allows.

...and yes flushing would still require a couple of refills before results could be considered consistent.

 

[doom2]

Thanks for your inputs, as websnail said I was wanting to flush them so i could see what ink blend available to me in the UK works the best and not being effected by mixed inks...

My update is though the ARC Chips now fitted to 3 of the 5 carts, M,C & Y... The Refill was exactly as expected from Miklings updates, these are the in the printer box setup carts that i've used. They were all around the 14.4g empty and about 23.2g full, each cart taking about 8-9ml of ink. ARC chips were attached with some prit glue dots so they can be transferred to new carts if needed at a later date. Time to wait for the black/Photo black to go them some print tests..

But from the first few test pages I was correct on my opinion on the next to useless CISS carts I was using that the constant horizontal lines i was getting in the print was from the CISS carts and have now totally gone using the Epson refills plus the Nozzle check print is much more precise and crisp.

I would totally avoid any of these carts that have a sponge and totally different pad on the cart, so glad the CISS company refunded me as i would of NEVER got a fix from them.

Time for more testing on inks now.

Thanks
D2.

 

[websnail]

Finally got my T26xx empties to play with and pulled one apart.

While I'm almost certainly going to stating the obvious and/or repeating some previous intel', I'm just going to go with it rather than trying to refer back and forward 15 times, so apologies in advance. Think of repeats as a useful summary

*note: I'm going to refer to the Dribble refilling method as DM throughout for speed

Ok... first thing to note is that these cartridges have no window like the PGI-9 so there's no handy means of referencing your ink levels visually. There is the little prism in the base and I suppose it might be possible to use that if you could figure out the differences shown between full and empty. Use of jewellery scales obviously helps you resolve the issue of how full the cartridge is with ink but what it won't allow you to do is figure out how much air might be in there.

At this stage, I'm not too sure how important the air issue could be for DIY refillers using the DM but only testing is going to help with that.

Disassembly
Next thing, again, rather obvious, is that the cartridge side is sealed on good and tight... It's an absolute pig to get off and in the process I punctured the bag. Based on what I've learned so far, disassembly is not going to be required for any DM refilling but worth mentioning it for anyone thinking to give it a go. Expect the cartridge to be knackered afterwards.

This image shows the cartridge taken apart and two items in particular I was interested in relating to venting:

1. Case vent hole.. This is the only way air can enter the cartridge unless the cartridge has suffered damage to the seal
2. Bag vent mechanism..

Design Features
There is a single vent from the external to the internal cartridge body and air flow into this is controlled by the vent matrix in the detached side panel.

To show what happens I've traced the matrix path and roughly superimposed it over the internal cartridge.

Basically, the plastic film (shown in earlier photos from Mikling) is sealed over the matrix in the cartridge side panel. The seal extends across from the vent (1) until it reaches 4. Here the film is left open and it's basically the other end to allow air in and out (3). As with all other cartridges it compensates for ink usage although in this instance it's the bag deflating.

The bag vent (2) is, as suspected, triggered by the bag deflating until the metal plate triggers the plastic arm that sticks out under the plate. When triggered it allows air into the bag. However there's no secondary inlet for the air to get into the bag, and (2) only has access to the air already within the cartridge body.


Whether by design or not, the fact that the bag vent does indeed trigger when the bag is empty, does mean that any commercial operations looking to flush, vacate and refill, are going to have a tough time making it work.

Actually thinking it through further, no it's easily resolved (I think!)...

i) Seal the vent hole (and shallow channel leading to cartridge side) on the side panel (aluminium tape?)

ii) Pull a vacuum on the cartridge, via the outlet
This will draw air/ink out of the bag, trigger the bag vent and draw any remaining air from the cartridge body into the bag and out through the cartridge outlet.

iii) Partially refill bag with cartridge in an upright position (so gravity isn't readily providing ink to be drawn out through the bag vent to mess up the internal cartridge outside the bag).
I suspect the amount to fill at this stage would need to be figured out carefully as the vent will be open and drawing anything it can out to fill the vacuum outside the bag. So some testing needed here.

iv) Unseal the vent hole (the trigger should no longer be active).

v) Complete refilling

Using the same process to flush out inks is still going to be a pain but at least it's feasible... and doubtless someone else can finesse that somewhat but as a first draft, not too shoddy


Note: The process above is intended to deal with the problem commercial refillers are going to face (flush, purge, refill) but if air ingress to the bag turns out to be problem for DIY refillers using the DM approach then a flush clip (as we've done with PGI-9, etc) should solve the problem and a simple enough syringe based solution is already simmering in the old noggin


As for future testing, I'll need to source some more of these cartridges and try to get one apart without puncturing the darned thing and then stick a window panel over it instead so I can see what happens. In particular I'm interested to see:
a) Whether normal usage "empty" does indeed mean the the bag is filled with air
b) If true, what that means for dribble refilling
c) If it creates a problem, how to mitigate it (Likely using the method given above).



Been an interesting exercise so far so hopefully the above contributes to the discussion to date...

 

[mikling]

In total, I've refilled all 5 carts at least 100 times thus far. No air leakage. This is for the same reasons I explained on another thread on the PGI-9. Surface tension across a permeable membrane. As long as the mesh is always kept wet with liquid of the right properties that creates the required surface tension, air will not penetrate the cartridge. Except for the valve which I explained earlier. The valve allows a small bit of air to enter. This small volume of air enables ink to drop down to the bottom and get used by the printer until it runs down to when the prism detects no more ink. The PGI-9 will trap ink high up in the baffles that is not able to be used. This does not happen with the Epson design. Again..a design to not get into trouble again at the courts. Major kudos to the Epson engineers on this one. The air the valve allows in is about 1 ml as best I can determine. Subsequent to that, it never lets in anymore because the ink always falls to the bottom with a little air in the bladder. The same cannot be said for the PGI-9 but it matters nada for refillers anyway.

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8174

Take a look at the picture of the mesh. This similar material but smooth nylon or something on the Epson. Epson uses two meshes in close proximity with an ink bridge. Canon chose to do this with the fibrous material. The Epson mesh has a spring backing so it is flexible, Canon uses the soft felt to maintain contact. Both need some "give" to maintain contact. They chose two different solutions. Given the print speed of these printers, I think Canon's solution might have problems in supplying the ink. Certainly the mesh solution is more effective in producing a higher flow rate.

There is a hole next to the pad. What is that for?...Hmmmmmm.... the reason is interesting. Just like the series Breaking Bad, next week same time same channel. Clever Epson engineers.

I'll stick my neck out here I'm 90% sure now.

With the proper stuff. This printer can be a REAL replacement and superior machine to own than any of the Canon desktop AIO today. I am so impressed with the engineering on this machine I intend to give full support on these models. For many it might be the ultimate home printer. Even grandma can refill these the correct way! A digital scale is a nice to have but NOT MUST HAVE as long as you have good eyesight and proper lighting even if you mess up, a paper towel will fix problems. Half the time I refilled without a scale. As soon as the ink slowly accumulates a bit on the mesh, it is full enough. DONE.

 

[doom2]

So i gather from both your findings/investigations that as a home print user and not a commercial re-filler/seller that the dribble refill method will never be an issue for me, even if this air valve thingie triggers and lets in air?

Thanks Guys!!
D2

 

[websnail]

..air will not penetrate the cartridge. Except for the valve which I explained earlier. The valve allows a small bit of air to enter.

Concur... The trigger valve is spring loaded so as soon as the plate pressure is released (by air entering the bag) the trigger closes the valve... It's not a doomsday, once-on-stays-on sort of valve which was, I think the concern waaayyy back.

This small volume of air enables ink to drop down to the bottom and get used by the printer until it runs down to when the prism detects no more ink.

Makes perfect sense..

The PGI-9 will trap ink high up in the baffles that is not able to be used.

Not sure I'd agree entirely with this. Gravity still plays its part in ink migrating down the bag as its used up but the T26xx design, does indeed remove any potential compared to the PGI-9.

Proportionally though the PGI-9 holds much more ink that the T26xx carts though so even 0.75ml would be a significant percentage of ink that couldn't be used, which with the legal ramifications just wouldn't be worth the risk...

Even grandma can refill these the correct way! A digital scale is a nice to have but NOT MUST HAVE as long as you have good eyesight and proper lighting even if you mess up, a paper towel will fix problems. Half the time I refilled without a scale. As soon as the ink slowly accumulates a bit on the mesh, it is full enough. DONE.

Given doom2's experience with the CIS sponge cartridge approach it looks like earlier comments about it being a CIS killer are fairly accurate... Epson won't be the "easy mark" on the block in that area anymore.

The question now though, is whether the next iteration in a years time will adapt to make DIY refilling harder or not... Worry about that another day I reckon.



One thing that hasn't been answered or rather tested thoroughly (at least to my knowledge). Given the lack of a wetness censor, just how single use are the chips or is there potentially a reset opportunity after all? ARC's seem to be a positive, well placed alternative but I'm curious purely for the sake of knowledge. That and there's always the possibility that Epson will release a firmware update to kill compatibility with ARC's... Plan B's would be good to have after all.