Do I have a problem with dry sponges

[ghwellsjr]

... you must use a sharp needle and you must put the hole up higher so that you actually pierce the sponge material rather than sliding underneath it like I was promoting. If you do that, there is no risk of a leak.

No, you do not have to use a sharp needle at any time. I am not the only one who has reproduced this successfully time and time again. I use an 18 gauge blunt needle exclusively. Sharp or blunt needles work. It is way overdue for this myth about needles to end.

After I learned that the hole should not be made at the very bottom of the cartridge, I made the hole close to the tab that sticks out just above the bottom. All of my 2" needles are blunt so when I tried to pierce the sponge, it was not clean but I did manage to get it all the way to the wall. It actually contacted the bottom of the cartridge at about the half way point and slid along it, just like it did when I put the hole at the bottom. But I could not get the needle into the hole and into the reservoir. I took apart a cartridge and then it was obvious why: the hole is raised up off the floor of the cartridge creating a ridge. A sharp needle, according to the instructions can easily ride over this ridge if you rotate the syringe. I also had trouble when I put the hole in the bottom of the cartridge but I overcame this by flexing the needle up and down until it would go in. That doesn't work unless the needle is riding all the way across the bottom of the cartridge. But I'm thinking that this created a much larger grove along the bottom of the sponge that contributed to the leaking problem.

So now the question is: why did I find it impossible to get the blunt needle into the reservoir when you and others obviously don't have that problem? Could it be that the older, chipless cartridges have that ridge and the newer chipped cartridges don't, and that's what you are refilling? I don't have enough CLI-8 cartridges to sacrifice one to see if this is true.

I use a conveniently marked location on the side of the cartridge to make the refill hole which works every time. It is somewhere in the "PP" of the ">PP<" as seen on the side of the cartridge.

Does it really matter how high up the hole is as long as the needle rides over the area where the outlet port is and contacts the bottom of the cartridge about half way into the sponge? Can't it be above the PP?

IMO, something else besides a properly tapped and refilled cartridge must occur for a leak from the Durchstich hole, which usually equates to increased pressure (or partial pressure) within the cartridge such as from external force applied, increased temperature, or maybe a significant and rapid change in barometric pressure.

A leaking refill hole otherwise may mean the user is not doing something(s) properly such as you pointed about too low placement of the Durchstich hole

Agreed. So I take it you are agreeing with Panos that the refill hole should not be at the bottom, correct? That was the main thing I was doing wrong, correct?

All the methods have a learning curve. All the methods work. All the methods have pitfalls. All the methods have proven variables which may be interchanged (silicone plugs vs screws or sharp vs blunt needles for instance). Problems generally occur either because of inexperience, impatience or attempts to alter proven methodologies. Ineptitude or physical limitations continue to be factors which may require changing refill methods. Because of the proven track records of both Traditional and Durchstich refill methods, complaints are more likely reflections of the user, not the method, and have no or little value in determining the viability of the method overall - a singular exception would be the inherent messiness of the Traditional method, which is easily managed but may sway some to try the Durchstich method.

I have read your thread on the Freedom refill method and it is intriguing. Good job on building a better mousetrap!

Thanks, I like it a lot, but it is always messy, no matter how careful you are, but it is way less messy than the vacuum method I used to do. I like it because it solves the problem of getting ink into the air vent path which, at the time, was hard to clear out. Now with my Freedom method, it is easy to clear out but it's also easy to keep the ink from getting into the air vent in the first place, at least with transparent cartridges.

 

[ghwellsjr]

Several claims have been made on this thread questioning these concepts so I decided to run some tests to confirm my statements.

New OEM cartridges have ink partially saturating the upper sponge. Some have commented in the forum about having ink coloring all the sponge area and having no problems printing. Someone has commented that a saturated upper sponge caused them ink flow problems during long printing sessions presumably from inability of the sponge to "breathe".

Can you do a test with a saturated sponge - a sponge with no white showing - and see if there is a problem with ink flow? This seems to be the real functional issue here, not the differences in sponge geometry or speculating why Cannon doesn't provide another 0.5 ml's in their cartridges. (I don't know if there is a difference between a fully colored sponge and a "super"-saturated sponge in this circumstance, nor know how you would control for these variables.)

This thumbnail:



from my vacuum refill article shows a very saturated upper (and lower) sponge. I refilled through the air vent hole so you can't get any more saturated than that. But I would blow some of that ink out of the upper sponge because it would otherwise drip for awhile. You can see this in action in the "Top Drain Video". I refilled many hundreds of BCI cartridges this way and none of them had any problem.

None of them had a problem, that is, until I refilled some of the cartridges that I had previously refilled, specifically, some BCI-3eBk with Inktec's pigment black ink that had dried out in the cartridge. That is probably unrelated to any issue we are discussing here but it did make me wonder if the problem for dye ink cartridges could be when you have refilled them over and over again and layer upon layer of dried ink builds up to the point that it blocks air flow. But, as I have said before, I usually refill only virgin cartridges, because I have so many, so I have never run into this problem.

 

[mikling]

http://www.mediafire.com/file/e11w5i2o6wk0h2r/Sponges.rar

LINK DELETED. See further down.

are pictures that I am sure many will want to look at. The german refill fans will find some pictures that they may interesting and for the thinkers it should pose some questions. I do not have time to go through them all but they are numbered sequentially and this will indicate what I have stated. They go much beyond the excellent work that ghswellsjr has done with the pictures on the porosity that a certain person claimed is identical.

I may start another thread at some point to explain the pics, but these pics will clarify why "head pressure", direction of sponge fibers, etc are pretty much non issues. Again the final pictures should be eye openers for those who still don't understand how the reserve tank works...and how to ensure that it works the way it is intended.

Enjoy.

 

[stratman]

After I learned that the hole should not be made at the very bottom of the cartridge, I made the hole close to the tab that sticks out just above the bottom. All of my 2" needles are blunt so when I tried to pierce the sponge, it was not clean but I did manage to get it all the way to the wall. It actually contacted the bottom of the cartridge at about the half way point and slid along it, just like it did when I put the hole at the bottom. But I could not get the needle into the hole and into the reservoir. I took apart a cartridge and then it was obvious why: the hole is raised up off the floor of the cartridge creating a ridge. A sharp needle, according to the instructions can easily ride over this ridge if you rotate the syringe. I also had trouble when I put the hole in the bottom of the cartridge but I overcame this by flexing the needle up and down until it would go in. That doesn't work unless the needle is riding all the way across the bottom of the cartridge. But I'm thinking that this created a much larger grove along the bottom of the sponge that contributed to the leaking problem.

So now the question is: why did I find it impossible to get the blunt needle into the reservoir when you and others obviously don't have that problem? Could it be that the older, chipless cartridges have that ridge and the newer chipped cartridges don't, and that's what you are refilling? I don't have enough CLI-8 cartridges to sacrifice one to see if this is true.

I do not have experience with the older chipless cartridges. There may indeed be a significant difference such that the location I make the Durchstich hole at would be a problem for those older cartridges.

I can see in my cartridges that the ">PP<" is VERY close to the floor of the interior of the cartridge and that the channel made by the blunt needle appears to begin well before the ink outlet port filter begins. Maybe I have been incredibly fortunate with the combination of my technique, using CLI-8 and PGI-5 cartridges exclusively and using high quality inks. Maybe I have been trouble free for quite a while because I'm only using one set of cartridges now. Most likely I'm just an ordinary joe who has done nothing special and most should have similar results.

Does it really matter how high up the hole is as long as the needle rides over the area where the outlet port is and contacts the bottom of the cartridge about half way into the sponge? Can't it be above the PP?

I have no idea since I've not done it differently. I do know unequivocally that where I make the refill hole has worked for me - usually using the indentation of the rightward part of the "o" portion of the first "P" as guide for my push pin. I use this area to try to center the hole.

Agreed. So I take it you are agreeing with Panos that the refill hole should not be at the bottom, correct? That was the main thing I was doing wrong, correct?

I don't know where the optimal placement of the Durchstich hole is. All I know is that the location I place the hole works for me. Logically, it should work for others. This is why I recommend it.

Thanks, I like it a lot, but it is always messy, no matter how careful you are, but it is way less messy than the vacuum method I used to do. I like it because it solves the problem of getting ink into the air vent path which, at the time, was hard to clear out. Now with my Freedom method, it is easy to clear out but it's also easy to keep the ink from getting into the air vent in the first place, at least with transparent cartridges.

No method will be entirely free of any mess. Even the Durchstich method, the cleanest method I know of, can occasionally drip or cause a slight splatter when you remove the needle from the cartridge, particularly if you rush things or are too aggressive with the refill. The one thing all the methods have in common, besides reduced total cost of ownership, is liberty, which is why I like your method's name very much - Freedom!

 

[stratman]

None of them had a problem, that is, until I refilled some of the cartridges that I had previously refilled, specifically, some BCI-3eBk with Inktec's pigment black ink that had dried out in the cartridge. That is probably unrelated to any issue we are discussing here but it did make me wonder if the problem for dye ink cartridges could be when you have refilled them over and over again and layer upon layer of dried ink builds up to the point that it blocks air flow. But, as I have said before, I usually refill only virgin cartridges, because I have so many, so I have never run into this problem.

Sounds like vacuum refilling may promote caked or dried ink returning to solution.

The two factors I believe usually responsible for requiring a flush are a stiff sponge from cake ink or other particulates, and, a blocked air vent from ink. It is not clear to me that a sponge colored/saturated with ink - while not blocking the air vent itself - is a culprit in ink starvation. It could be I either have not reached enough saturation or that I have not printed enough in a single session to create ink flow problems.

What do you do with your once refilled cartridges?

 

[stratman]

http://www.mediafire.com/file/e11w5i2o6wk0h2r/Sponges.rar

are pictures that I am sure many will want to look at. The german refill fans will find some pictures that they may interesting and for the thinkers it should pose some questions. I do not have time to go through them all but they are numbered sequentially and this will indicate what I have stated. They go much beyond the excellent work that ghswellsjr has done with the pictures on the porosity that a certain person claimed is identical.

I may start another thread at some point to explain the pics, but these pics will clarify why "head pressure", direction of sponge fibers, etc are pretty much non issues. Again the final pictures should be eye openers for those who still don't understand how the reserve tank works...and how to ensure that it works the way it is intended.

Enjoy.

Looks like bloody murder happened!

Look forward to context to clarify the pictures.

 

[martin0reg]

@mikling
Thank you for the pictures, explanation would be helpful...
The last pictures: is the ink chamber filled with ink?
If so, they might tell that the "two chamber design" (beside the two sponge design) holds the ink unless it is sucked out by the sponge!? Or am I totally wrong?

Since I think about the two chambers I have to think of the "constant pressure" bottle of this ciss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7k8yKQwF6c&playnext=1&list=PL4E793C447D54205F
- but the chambers are interchanged compared to canon What will happen if he opens the plug of the big chamber, would the water in the small chamber hold?

@ghwells
I use also blunt needles (hole above bottom). To get over the ridge I just press the syringe a little bit up to get the needle away from the bottom. It is like poking with a picklock.

 

[slocumeddie]

Tin Ho wrote......mostly to Mikling:


Don't purge ink cartridges that contain dye based ink with water.
*************************************************************************************************************************
Come on, Mikling. You need to do some home work before making a stunning statement of your misconception again. To make this statement it tells that you do not have a correct understanding how Canon ink cartridges work.
************************************************************************************************************************* I would be very careful in making a statement like this. There are many reasons Canon does not fill up the top sponge. You are ignoring those important reasons to make a statement like this one.
*************************************************************************************************************************
I would like to hear some words of evidence that the upper sponge is more porous than the bottom one.
*************************************************************************************************************************
I would like to know if I really screwed up on this.
*************************************************************************************************************************
It is insane that a reseller of a popular made in USA ink kept on his bluffing without doing the homework. I have said enough. I am sure somebody else will come out to stop him from more hypes next.
*************************************************************************************************************************
Why are there so many who want to pay a reseller located outside of USA for a product made in USA?
*************************************************************************************************************************
My suggestion to you. Stop making your own interpretation from the look of your pictures.
*************************************************************************************************************************
Your understanding of how the sponge works is wrong.
*************************************************************************************************************************


I find the above collection stunning. Misinformation, personal attacks, poor advice, challenges...........it is simply stunning !

One comment I do find satisfying though........."I have said enough" !

 

[mikling]

martinoreg

mariotte bottle...google it.

A little bit of physics

Re: video
When was the last time you saw ink consumed and dripping out that fast out of a printhead? under very low flow other forces are much more significant. I explained this before. That while it is valid ignores many other more significant issues.

My university fluid dynamics classes go back to the late 70's that is why I am very rusty at applying the numbers to this game.

and YES the tank/reserve is FILLED with ink/fluid in many pictures and it is not coming out. So how does the ink come out of the tank???????? you'll soon find out why.

 

[slocumeddie]

Come on, Mikling.....this is a real marionette bottle !

Please note.....the upper sponges(hands), and the lower sponges(feet), are not the same.....they absorb Johnny Walker Black Label at differing rates.......I know....I tried it myself