CLI-8 Cartridges, How does the chip really monitor ink?

[mikling]

OK boys I just got a service manual for the iP4200 in PDF format.
Dispels all rumors of how ink is used and what ink in what mode etc.... The Reference not hearsay. It doesn't divulge anything about timings etc.
Anybody intending on hacking this thing and want more details should contact me first. This thing is likely not really public domain stuff.

 

[AlienSteve]

Why not just monitor the LED, and only check the phototransistor when the LED is powered?

 

[canonfodder]

AlienSteve,

Our concern is that the printer may never turn on the LED when it has decided that the particular cartridge is a refill. It 'decides' that by virtue of counting the cartridge as empty, but the user has insisted on continuing printing.

I say 'concern' because we have indications of that case, but do not have an absolute answer. I have been running experiments, but my printer still has some OEM cartridges which the printer has not declared as empty. It appears to check on those cartridges. I have proven that it will not REPORT on a cartridge which it had declared empty, after I re-emptied a refilled tank and did prints three times. Not reporting of course does not prove that the sensor is disabled.

I will be trying to tap into the sensor lines to monitor what is going on. Depending on what I find, I will be trying to use the signal or power up the LED and use the signal. I will be watching for undesirable actions on the part of the printer at every step.

 

[Grandad35]

If Canon does disable IR detection of empty tanks it is clear that the intention of doing so is for the purpose of leaving your print head unprotected against damage caused by empty ink tanks. My question would be if this practice is legal. This feature serves no purpose of increased value to customers. It's entirely for a purpose of discouraging you from refilling. It becomes a question if this violets anti-trust laws. Canon may be challenged in court why they added this feature (actually they reduced a feature by adding one) THAT SERVES NO BENEFIT FOR CUSTOMERS. This can be easily interpreted as a proof that it is not a beneficial feature they added. It's but a feature to discourage use of 3rd party competition. In a court if the grand jury agrees Canon will have to provide a solution for customers to re-enable the IR detection.

Even if this is not an anti-trust issue it violets consumer's right still. How can they set up the printer to destroy itself when it detects that you are using refilled ink tanks? It makes sense to disable ink level display. They can argue that it is no longer accurate because of refilling. But to disable IR detection so that you will destroy the print head it is in sane. US government needs to act on this to protect consumer rights. Maybe we should begin to send letters to FTC?

The more that I think about Tin Ho's idea, the more I like it. Maybe Canon didn't used to have the prism system, but they have been using it in their BCI-6 printers for a number of years, and they elected to continue it with their CLI-8 printers. There is no justification for their turning off a system designed to protect the printer. A lawyer would ask:
1. Why did you add the prism detection system on your BCI-6 printers? Was it to prevent clogging and head failures that you experienced on previous printer models?
2. Why did you keep the prism system in your latest CLI-8 printers if it isn't necessary or if it is a detriment to proper operation?
3. Why did you elect to remove a safety check that is already implemented in the printer only when people refill? What benefit does this bring to the consumer? Isn't it just a punishment designed to keep consumers from refilling?

I feel that Canon's position is indefensible, and that they would lose a class action suit just like Epson lost their suit about leaving too much ink in their cartridges (http://www.epsonsettlement.com/index.htm). In fact, I suspect that Canon left the prism in their latest printers largely because they didn't want a problem similar to Epson's problem - I believe that Epson relied solely on the drop count to determine when a cart was empty. We all know who makes out in class action suits (and it isn't those who have been wronged), but it may be a way to force Canon to modify their printer software to keep the level sensors active for those who refill. Perhaps one of the bulk ink vendors would undertake getting a lawyer to look into the possibility of a class action suit, as they have the most to lose.

 

[Tin Ho]

Here you go, Grandad. Don't we have caught some wrong doing of Canon? If they refuse to honor warranty for those who refill this will be the weapon to win in the court. But honestly Canon has been more generous comparing with the other two gig guys. I have absolutely zero problem refilling my ip4300 despite the prizm being off. But it would be nice if Canon is willing to release updates to their printer firmware to turn the IR system back on. They should be able to double their sale of such printers although ink sale won't double. That's still a sizeable market share for Canon to benefit from. They need a wakeup call from the largest Canon printer community group called nifty. Most of the threads appeared in this forum are Canon printer related.

 

[Kamikaze]

I have read through this entire thread and admit that the technical stuff is way over my head. Please let me know if I have the right overall practical sense of where we stand on refilling the new Canon printers.
1. First off let me say hats off to Canon for clear plastic carts.
2. Most likely the ink level is contained on the chip and encryption prevents cracking. Hopefully like my on line credit card purchases are protected by encryption. (The hopeful part is about my credit card purchases only)
3. The new Canon's are completely refillable, all you have to do is manually monitor the ink levels.
4. If you fail to monitor the ink levels then you should be able to detect an empty cart from streaked printing.
5. Only a large, unmonitored, print job, where the cart becomes empty and has extended empty cart printing, would probably result in a burned out print head. This point may be unclear as of yet.

This post is great stuff and hopefully is a start at refilling Canon printers without the ink monitor being disabled.

 

[canonfodder]

Kamikaze,

I think you've got it !

It was probably difficult to extract the parts significant to you or anyone else just wanting to refill, but you got it done.

Much of the other discussion and information is around and about this thread's subject and what could be done about it.

I plan to keep watch on my cartridges. I do think that streaked printing or missing color is a pretty good clue and is likely a safe backup, but you should stop printing at the first sign of that.

The 'engineer' in some of us is never satisfied to just let go. We can have an insatiable curiosity about how things work, how to surpass that which hinders us, and how to fix the most minor of flaws.

 

[ghwellsjr]

1. First off let me say hats off to Canon for clear plastic carts.

I don't think Canon made the carts clear so we could see the ink level inside, I think they did it so the prism would work.

 

[Lilla]

I came across the post below in ALotOfThings.com help/support section here; it is as shown below...

CLI-8 based printers will run slower using refilled cartridges

31/10/2006 00:14
Canon PIXMA iP4200, iP5200, iP5200R, iP6600D, MP500, MP800 & MP950 will run slower if using refilled cartridges according to Canon. CLI-8 based printers will run slower using refilled cartridges.

According to Canon technical support the following printers which use CLI-8 ink tanks will perform slower when printing multi-page documents on refilled cartridges:
Canon PIXMA iP4200, iP5200, iP5200R, iP6600D, MP500, MP800, MP950.

What is not mentioned by Canon is that this also occurs on new third party replacement cartridges if those cartridges are using Canon chips on them. (Such as the G&G CLI-8 replacements without chip)

According to Canon technical support the print speed will recover once you have remove and reset the ink tank in the printer. In other words... Once you buy another one of their cartridges.

To those who are refilling these printers, have you noticed this slow down? Is it significant?

Are the limitations imposed by the chips the same/more/less on the newer printers, i.e. IP4300 vs IP4200?

 

[websnail]

I've been printing with a home made CIS on 3 different chipped canon printers and noticed no change..

The chances are that the system merely provides a delay to allow for the fact that you may be using ink that doesn't necessarily dry properly before it's reversed.. At a guess this problem only surfaces when you use the auto duplication feature which does use drying time and I think I'm right in saying that you can customise though although I don't have access to confirm right this second.

Bottom line.. I really hadn't noticed.. .