Canon Quality, 5 Colour 1pl VS 6 Colour 2pl

[Grandad35]

If you want compare the gamuts of color spaces/printers/cameras/etc., I suggest that you look at (http://www.drycreekphoto.com/tools/printer_gamuts/). Color gamuts are 3_D creatures, so you will need to download a VRML viewer to allow you to rotate them into different views to see the differences. Because many people wont want to do this, I have posted 4 comparisons. In every case, the gray wireframe is the sRGB color space, the red wireframe is the aRGB color space and the solid blob is the gamut of the stated device. I tried to rotate them to approximately the same viewing angle. These images were all captured from screenshots.

This is the type of photo printer used by Costco (and many others) to print low cost digital photos it uses a traditional Chemical Process to develop an image digitally exposed onto traditional photo paper (Fuji Crystal Archive in this case). You can see that the aRGB color space is larger than the sRGB color space, but that the Noritsus range of colors almost completely falls within the sRGB color space from this view. If you download the viewer and rotate this image, you will find that there are some colors that extend outside of even the aRGB color space.


This is the color gamut of a Canon i950 (OEM inks on Canon PPPro paper). This view makes it clear that even an "old" 950 can print many colors that fall outside of sRGB (and some that even fall outside of aRGB). This color gamut exceeds that of a "traditional photo" in almost every area.


This is the color gamut of a Canon i9900, which adds red and green inks to the i950s 6 inks. As would be expected, the two extra inks extend the gamut in some colors, but not in others.


This shows that digital cameras have the ability to capture colors that fall FAR outside of even aRGB. This camera is a Pro-body Canon IDs Mark II, but even lesser cameras can record values well outside of sRGB. For "snapshot quality" images, our brain does a great job of creating a good color range out of the reduced sRGB color set. However, if you are trying to capture a sunset over the Grand Canyon, sRGB just cant do justice to mother nature.

 

[mikling]

Apparently. the surfaces don't tell all either. http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html

I've always considered the aspects of creation of extended color gamuts a real "magical" art by the engineers of the high performance printer companies. Especially when there is a choice of variable dot size, selection of ink shades and drop pattern with various combinations of paper. When you consider the various combinations and permutations possible and the thousands of hours spent on improving a printer by these highly qualified individuals, I've always taken claims that someone in the aftemarket can extend the gamut and improve on their work with a grain of salt, My take and I definitely don't know anything about this is that by doing this, some other areas suffer. But I could be wrong.

What I do know and have proven to myself over and over again is that I prefer pictures printed with multiple inks when captured raw and processed appropriately with the largest color space my equipment allows. I tend towards landscape photography. Now if you tend towards wedding and people snapshots, your mileage may vary as sRGB will probably suffice there. I think the consideration that Canon's Pro 9000 features 2 pl and their iP6700 featuring 1 pl within the same generation and brand tells me that there's a whole lot more to producing colors and image quality than picoliter specs would reveal and I don't profess to know. The picture tells all.

Here's another consideration. If you believe that 1 picoliter will take care of the light Cyan and Magenta, then it should be easy for Canon to remove those colors off the 6700 and drop in their red and green from the pro 900 in their place and retain the gamut and image quality of the Pro 9500, introduce a new printer for very little R&D....Gee I wonder if they'll do this? Why? the interesting twist to all of this is that Epson has done something similar with their R800/1800. These printers are really six color printers with no light cyan and light magenta but with extended gamuts with blue and red inks. However, the R2400 with the 8 colors including two shades of light black produces a more neutral picture. The R800 to my eye produce pictures with a lot of flash that stands out but is not as natural as the 2400 which retains the traditional light cyan and magenta. So maybe in the same vein as the R800 vs R2400 some individuals prefer one over the other and similarly, some may prefer the 4 color over the traditional 6 colors. ???????

 

[Tin Ho]

This is the color gamut of a Canon i950 (OEM inks on Canon PPPro paper). This view makes it clear that even an "old" 950 can print many colors that fall outside of sRGB...

This shows that digital cameras have the ability to capture colors that fall FAR outside of even aRGB...

Grandad, very interesting post from you. Thank you. Could you clarify that being able to print or capture colors outside of sRGB or even outside of aRGB does not mean they can print or capture a color space bigger than sRGB or aRGB? It's hard to get a clear perception from those gamut plots to see how big a color space each one really is.

I am still surprised to hear that some cameras can capture colors oustside of aRGB or even just sRGB. I am a little shocked that some printers can print colors outside of sRGB.

 

[Tin Ho]

I think the consideration that Canon's Pro 9500 features 2 pl and their iP6700 featuring 1 pl within the same generation and brand tells me that there's a whole lot more to producing colors and image quality than picoliter specs would reveal and I don't profess to know. The picture tells all.

Canon Pro9500 uses pigmented ink. That is probably the reason for its 2 pl print head. Ip6700 uses dye based ink. 1 pl print head is readily made for it. It is a fact that dye based ink has a wider gamut than pigment based ink. There is no doubt Pro9500 prints high quality photos but it still can not print a gamut wider than Pro9000 can.

Here's another consideration. If you believe that 1 picoliter will take care of the light Cyan and Magenta, then it should be easy for Canon to remove those colors off the 6700...

A combination of 1 pl and PC/PM ink is a whole word of difference from a 4 pl with only CMYK ink. But again, and I am not the only one believe in that, 1 pl and 2 pl do not make a whole lot of visual difference in print quality witnessed by i960 prints. The reason in my opinion is the majority of differences are in very light colors that do not catch human eyes as saturated colors do. If you use scientific measurement to plot the gamut you will clearly see a difference.

 

[mikling]

The Pro 9000 uses CLI-8 cartridges just like the 6700D. The Pro 9000 is specified as a 2 pl droplet size.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/c...ategoryid=182&modelid=12892#ModelTechSpecsAct

The comparison was intended to be the Pro 9000. Even my older i9900 is spec'd as a 2 pl droplet.

here's an analogy to think about. If I play AM radio on a $500 stereo as opposed to a $$5,000 stereo they're not going to sound very different. When I play a well recorded CD or SACD on them, they both sound very different. If AM radio is all you listen to then the $500 stereo is good enough. If you listen more critically, then the $500 system may not be good enough. So again it depends on your intended use and quality desired and what you're feeding it.

 

[Grandad35]

Could you clarify that being able to print or capture colors outside of sRGB or even outside of aRGB does not mean they can print or capture a color space bigger than sRGB or aRGB? It's hard to get a clear perception from those gamut plots to see how big a color space each one really is.

Here is another site (http://back.iccview.de/index_eng.htm) that allows you to compare various gamuts. You still need to download a VRML plugin to view them, but this site allows you to upload your own profile(s). It also gives the volume of a color space, in case you are into numbers.

I am still surprised to hear that some cameras can capture colors outside of aRGB or even just sRGB. I am a little shocked that some printers can print colors outside of sRGB.

Download the viewer and spend some time looking at the various gamuts. Just because a specific color space is larger than another in one area does not mean that it is larger in all areas.

However, unless you are a real expert in this area (and I certainly am not), you should be careful in trying to draw specific conclusions from this data. If your printer has a large color range in a specific color, but your photos dont contain saturated colors in that color region, what good does it do for your prints? A larger color gamut only helps if you actually print those saturated colors. This implicitly includes processing the digital images in a color space large enough to include the colors that you wish to print. If you take an image with the full color range shown for the Canon 1D camera, but save it in the sRGB color space, all of the extra color information will be lost (the details depend on the rendering intent and several other settings).

You have to remember that the sRGB standard (http://www.techterms.com/definition/srgb) was designed to describe the color range of consumer monitors, not as an ideal standard for photos. In fact, if you are in the graphic arts business (your work is printed commercially), you are probably more interested in the SWOP color space (http://www.gracol.org/resources/iccaccept.asp), which has been designed to represent the capabilities of commercial printers (and which has been around since 1975).

As Mikling discussed, a lot of research that went into selecting the inks and drop sizes for the prosumer printers. I tend to trust that Canon and Epson have done their homework and have designed their prosumer printers to meet the needs of a typical high-end amateur.

 

[narmenia]

i am also trying to figure out this question...

which is better?
1. Canon ip4500 - 5-color, 1picoliter
2. Epson r260/r280 - 6-color, 1.5picoliter

and if one is better... is there any large significance over the other?

 

[stratman]

If AM radio is all you listen to then the $500 stereo is good enough.

Umm, a $10-25 boom box is all you need.

 

[Smile]

i am also trying to figure out this question...

which is better?
1. Canon ip4500 - 5-color, 1picoliter
2. Epson r260/r280 - 6-color, 1.5picoliter

and if one is better... is there any large significance over the other?

This question can be answered by creating the profiles and then comparing gamuts, white point, black point, neutral rendering is important too. The ink as I understood will be OEM for both printers and paper is the most significant component that can influence outcome here. If Epson paper is better then then Canon printer will print on it better or vice versa. Some papers can be used only for pigment ink but to know you need to do tests.

You can also compare canned printer profiles by the manufacturer, or if you can print and mail me the printed charts I could make the profiles etc.

 

[Tin Ho]

However, unless you are a real expert in this area

Grandad, thanks for your further input on this thread. I have no doubt you are more knowledgeable on this subject.

No, I am not anywhere near an expert at all. I simply believe I am full of outdated knowledge about color management in my head that is in need of fresh replenishment. I asked the questions because I used to believe that most commercial grade inkjet printers have a gamnut well within the scope of sRGB. I also got the impression that most digital cameras (not including latest higher end ones) output by default in sRGB which seems to indicate that they do not capture colors outside of sRGB. If they can shoot in RAW then you may have options to output in aRGB or other wider color spaces. Then they may capture (or produce) colors outside sRGB (or even aRGB). You know scanners can produce scans using interpolation to produce resolution higher than their native resolution. Cameras sure can output colors outside their native space too by using software tools. So my real question is if most inkjet printers we use do have a gamut wider than sRGB. I may be very wrong about this. But when I compare the colors of my images on my Viewsonic LCD monitor set to sRGB (to match my PC's default) and the colors printed by my Canon printer I can see that some colors on my monitors are simply impossible for the printer to print. If some colors on my monitor in sRGB are not printable the printer's gamut has to be in a smaller color space than sRGB. I have seen a document published by Adobe on ICC site that concurred this. There are many colors seen on most computer monitors that are not printable by inkjet printers. Perhaps this is indeed old knowledge that needs revise. I am search for answers for a update.

BTW, the difficulty of capturing the sunset scene at Grand Canyon for most digital cameras is more an issue of CCD's narrow dynamic range. Perhaps output in sRGB also further worsens the capture of colors as well. Thanks for pointing that out.