Canon or Epson or Canon or Epson

[NOTS3W]

I always appreciate forums like this where knowledgable experts share their experiences.

I've been considering a new printer to replace our slow HP722C. Home use. I don't print a lot but want better quality photo printing. I couldn't find an HP or Epson with the impressive specs and features of the new $300 Canon MP970. And most reviews seemed to favor Canon over other photo printers. I've been watching prices and the other day, I stumbled on what I think is a great deal: $259 for the MP970 at Circuit City PLUS a $100 rebate. Woo Hoo! I bought it! I knew about the chipped carts and had some vague understanding of the issues surrounding compatible carts and refilling.

From a ton of information I found on this site, as I understand it, I can refill the Canon CLI carts as long as I don't let them run completely dry and the only thing I lose is the full cart indication. The printer/software will still warn me if a cart runs out and there's no issue with warranty voiding if I refill the cartridge before it completely runs out. Is that a good and accurate summary?

Before I open the Canon box and given the chipped cart thing and a few comments here like "just by an Epson," I started looking closer at that option. The Epson RX680 is their top of the line MP (I think) but its resolution isn't quite as good as Canon's. No ethernet, either, but it does print on CDs and DVDs without hacking the firmware. They have optional high capacity T077 carts but that may be a finance optical illusion. The price is $129 right now. The $30 difference is not a deciding factor.

I can find less about refilling Epson carts but I gather that a less expensive (than the Canon $700) chip resetter is or will be available. Does it make sense to consider the Epson based on the chipped cart situation or are the issues pretty much the same with either brand? I really like the Canon but if I'm going to void the warranty in a few weeks, I could be tempted to exchange it for the Epson. I haven't investigated this, but I gather that I can buy a printer server for less than $100 to connect the Epson to my home network, so that's not a huge issue if the Epson cartridge arrangement is more desirable.

So what do you think? If the Epson carts are less of a hassle and I can get high quality photos from either, I'll go with the Epson. But if all things are more or less equal in terms of the carts, I'll stay with what I believe is the better Canon.

Thanks for your expertise and advice.

Ray

 

[eixty]

I'm not sure if you already know this, but that $100 rebate requires a separate purchase of a Canon Rebel XTi or XT DSLR Camera to be eligible for the rebate. I don't know enough about refilling so others can handle that.

 

[canonfodder]

From a ton of information I found on this site, as I understand it, I can refill the Canon CLI carts as long as I don't let them run completely dry and the only thing I lose is the full cart indication. The printer/software will still warn me if a cart runs out and there's no issue with warranty voiding if I refill the cartridge before it completely runs out. Is that a good and accurate summary?

I'll put in some information to immediately stop some misconceptions you have gathered. Others can put in their opinions about the brands and your choice.

1. It is probably better to not let Canon carts run completely dry, but you don't gain any advantage in ink reporting or warrantee. When the printer determines that a cart is empty, it will prompt you to replace it or choose to continue printing. When you elect the option to continue (because you refilled the cart) after some more prompts, the printer will turn off the ink monitoring and void your warantee. Nothing you can do, such as refilling before the cart is empty, will keep your ink monitor or warrantee.

Most of us have determined that the loss of warrantee is not an issue for us when considering the great amount of money saved by NOT buying Canon ink. We can soon save the cost of the printer, so we proceed.

2. If you proceed with refilling, the Canon printer will NOT warn you if a cart runs out.

You must check the ink levels for yourself. That is not hard to do, as the carts can be lifted out and put back with no problems. You do not want to let the ink completely run out in a cart, as there is the possibility of printhead damage.

If you are printing single pages or pictures in a situation where you are sitting there watching the print come out and you see that a color starts to fail, you can abort the print and have little risk of printhead damage. The danger in running out is when a large batch is printing and you are not watching and an ink runs out and the printer just keeps on.

3. My Canon results. I have great results with my Canon iP4200s. I have one on cartridge refill and another on home built CIS. Photos on glossy paper are great. Text is as sharp as a laser printer. I have no issues with clogging. Even when one iP4200 was left alone for over two weeks, the first print out was perfect with no sign of drying out or clogging. These iP4200s use CLI-8 and PGI-5 carts.

Others should post Epson and Canon comments.

 

[stratman]

The Cannon chipped printers use (at least) two different methods in determining an empty OEM cartridge. First, the chip/printer counts the number of nozzle sprays and approximates the amount of ink in the cartridge. Second, the printer used LED light to determine when the cartridge is empty. Neither of these methods can be diverted or changed without either a chip resetter (about $600 US) or accepting the warnings and choosing to continue printing (with a refilled cartridge of course) which also may invalidate your warranty for future service work. If you go this route then there will be NO ink level monitoring by the printer unless you insert a new OEM (or reset) cartridge. Unfortunately, turning off the ink monitoring is recorded by the printer in the EEPROM/EPROM and a service technician can see that if they look, which may or may not impact any service work warranty.

If you refill then you should accept the real possibility that Canon will not cover warranty work. The odds are that you will not require service work during the warranty period, but one can never know.

If you do refill the Canon cartridges then it may be best to refill before you begin to use too much ink out of the sponged side. The CLI-8 cartridges have 13 ml's of ink in them of which 8-9 ml's is in the spongeless side. It is easy to see when you are low of ink in the spongeless side but a little tricky to tell in the sponged side, although the colour of the sponge lightens as ink is drained from it. Unless you print the same things constantly and know how much ink you use per print job before needing to refill, it is best to refill when the spongeless side is low of no ink in order to prevent a costly printhead failure. Also, a dried out sponge will require purging more often because of flow-hindering clumps of ink and/or potential fungus. Keeping the sponge soaked with ink helps to prevent issues.

There have been a variety of methods mentioned in this forum concerning monitoring ink levels in the cartridges once you override Canon's system in order to refill. The standard has been to manually pull out and inspect cartridges. This works but also leads to some ink loss as the printer a clean/purge cycle because it may think you have put in a new cartridge and it primes the system, resulting in a loss of ink. The cost is much minimized since you are using aftermarket ink, but your ink waste pads (called a "diaper" on Epsons) will fill faster (could take months to years depending on your printing habits. I'm doing well and it's 1.5 years) requiring costly service or time consuming DIY to get back in (like) new shape.

Another method is to remove a plastic tab on the cartridge which then allows for manual inspection of ink levels while the cartridge is still in the printer. See this thread for more info: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2492.

Another method is to use a nifty application called InkMon to guestimate when it's time to refill. I have been testing it out and like it so far (though I do not rely upon it for monitoring the PGI-5 pigmented black cartridge which is OEM Canon). You can find a trial version and help at http://www.inkmon.org/.

Here is a link that explains the various methods of refilling the Canon cartridges: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=14900#p14900.

How to convert your Canon to print on CD/DVD can be found at http://fiveeasysteps.proboards2.com/index.cgi. The process is simple. It does add some cost to your total outlay but is worth it if you want nice looking media.

As far as Epson's go, others will be of better help. What I do know is that they print wonderful pictures but not the best text. They can be slower than Canon's in general. The pigmented color cartridges produce prints that archive for longer and are more waterproof than Canon's. They are more expensive to run, especially concerning how much ink is purged for maintenance as compared to Canon's. Have been much more aftermarket friendly (eg cartridges, chip resetters, CIS systems) than Canon BUT a recent court ruling will prevent many of the aftermarket goodies (though NOT ink) from being sold in the USA. Workarounds will present themselves I'm sure, but the hassle factor may notch up a bit. Need using, at least a colour test print, every week or risk a clogged printhead. Print on CD/DVD out of the box without muss or fuss unlike USA version Canon. Cartridges are smaller capacity than Canon's requiring refilling more often but using a CISS system negates this point as would keeping a spare set or two of filled replacements lessen the (very small) hassle factor.

I have an Canon MP830 and love it. It does what I want, when I want. Text, prints and CD/DVD's are quite good. I have been using the new Taiyo Yuden Watershield CD-R and DVD-R and the image quality is superb. The scanner, autoduplex and auto-document feeder function well, though the ADF is picky about what you feed it.

As far as the networking thing, others will have to chime in since I don't use a print server.

I think most people would be happy with either a Canon or an Epson. Since you are refilling the answer gets a bit more difficult since cost is less of a factor. Go with the one that offers you the feature set closest to what you need/desire for the $$$. Keep in mind, though, that text is better in general with a Canon (that has a PGI-5 cartridge like the MP970) and you don't have to print something every week to prevent problems like an Epson. Unless you are selling your prints, I don't see archiving as much of an issue since I can print the image again a few years down the road.

If you can, go to a store and print out some of your own images from your digital camera and compare between the two printers. You can even take your photo paper of choice, though each printer likes certain paper over others and the comparison may be inaccurate. You can compare text on the stores paper though.

Good luck. Post what happens.

 

[NOTS3W]

Thank you all for your comments.

@ eixty: There are two rebates being offered on the MP970. One is for $100 for the printer only, the other is for $100 on the printer WITH the purchase of a Canon camera. I don't know how to post a link and I doubt that I can yet, but if you look up the printer on Circuit City's web site, just below the rebate amount in the pricing section is a link to Rebate Details. On that page you'll see both rebates. The first one runs from 12/9 through 12/29 and is for the printer only. The second one runs from 11/1 through 12/31 and requires the purchase of a camera. I don't know why they'd offer the same rebate with or without the camera, but they do.

@ cannonfodder: Thank you for correcting me on the warranty. I thought that I'd read that the printer reported low ink when the cart got to a certain level and that even if refilled at that point, it would still only show low ink (or half full or something to that effect). And that only when it was completely empty would it recognize the previously empty cart and go through the warranty voiding warnings. You're correct about the replacement cost of the printer, as well. A complete set of carts for this printer is almost $100. If I refill only a few times and the whole printer blows up, I've saved enough to buy a new printer. Of course, if it craps out that quickly, I won't buy another Canon. With your CIS, your carts never fall below "full", right? So, does the printer have any problem with that? I'm assuming that at some point, after printing a few thousand pages and all carts are still full, the printer would "think" something was wrong. Or are you already beyond the warranty and ink monitoring issues?

@ stratman: I thought the free version of the inkmon software would only work with four color printers. Do you have the commercial version? I found the CD/DVD tray on ebay for $20. Beats making a cardboard one as I'd found instructions for (maybe on the fiveeasysteps site). It doesn't sound like there's much if any advantage to the Epson in terms of refilling the chipped carts unless they can be reset cheaply. So, for $30 difference ($50 with the CD tray), I get a network interface, higher resolution and better text printing, at least. It's sounding more and more like the Canon is the right choice.

Thanks again to all of you.

Ray

 

[canonfodder]

With your CIS, your carts never fall below "full", right? So, does the printer have any problem with that? I'm assuming that at some point, after printing a few thousand pages and all carts are still full, the printer would "think" something was wrong. Or are you already beyond the warranty and ink monitoring issues?

Yes, with the CIS the carts never fall below "full", but let me tell you some basic things about the Canon chipped carts.

The chip on the cartridge keeps track of the ink usage, not by some actual ink measurement but by keeping count of the ink shots that the printhead is commanded to make. This count is fairly well calibrated so the printer can keep track fairly well. When the count is enough to have expended the cartridge's ink, the printer tells you that it is detecting an empty cartridge, etc. The count information is stored in a non-volatile memory in the chip on the cartridge.

So when you elect to keep on printing, in spite of the chip knowing that the ink has been expended, the printer doesn't have to "think" something is wrong after many pages. This is because it would not be printing unless you already told it that you want to keep printing in spite of an empty tank. Nothing further is known by the printer about the condition of the ink in your cartridges, because it has stopped keeping count, turned off the ink monitor, and turned off the LED/detector system.

The LED plus detector system can tell when the liquid ink tank section of the cartridge is empty. It is used only for a special monitoring job, and only when the printer can assume you are operating with an original Canon cartridge, not a refill. Its job is to produce a warning should the cartridge ink tank run empty before the chip's ink shot count believes the tank is empty. This is a safety device that is brought into play in the case that some unusual leakage empties the ink tank well before the ink shot count should indicate the ink has been consumed. This detector system is disabled along with the ink monitor when you make your choice to keep printing and the warnings have been accepted.

 

[eixty]

Thank you all for your comments.

@ eixty: There are two rebates being offered on the MP970. One is for $100 for the printer only, the other is for $100 on the printer WITH the purchase of a Canon camera. I don't know how to post a link and I doubt that I can yet, but if you look up the printer on Circuit City's web site, just below the rebate amount in the pricing section is a link to Rebate Details. On that page you'll see both rebates. The first one runs from 12/9 through 12/29 and is for the printer only. The second one runs from 11/1 through 12/31 and requires the purchase of a camera. I don't know why they'd offer the same rebate with or without the camera, but they do.
Ray

Yeah, when I first read your post, it didn't seem to list the rebate without the Camera purchase for me, so I thought I'd give a heads up. It does show now though, and like you I ended up buying it as well. I was previously going to buy the MP610, but figured for about the same price after rebate, I'd go with the higher model. Thanks for the update on the rebate.

 

[NOTS3W]

@cannonfodder: Thanks for that info. The thread I was basing my assumptions on was a long one from about a year ago. The discussion there led me to believe that the prism was the first check of the cart's level. I thought that if you never got to that first milestone, the printer wouldn't start watching for empty. And based on that false assumption, your CIS should prevent the printer from ever seeing a half-empty cartridge. If they're counting ink shots, that's a whole different story and what you say makes much more sense. The more I think about it, the printer I've been using doesn't tell me anything about ink levels so losing the ink monitoring system isn't really a loss to me. It would be nice to have, but I don't have it now. And I'm less concerned about the warranty if I can save enough on refills to pay for another printer anyway.

At this point, I'm thinking that I'll buy a spare set of Canon carts to have on hand as the originals run out then refill the originals. That should last long enough to tell if there's anything really wrong with the printer out of the box before I void the warranty.

I was previously going to buy the MP610, but figured for about the same price after rebate, I'd go with the higher model. Thanks for the update on the rebate.

I hadn't looked at the 610 because I was interested in the ethernet connectivity. We have a small 2-pc LAN at home. Our computers aren't new fast machines, so when my wife prints through my PC, I bog down. The printer on the LAN should fix that. I did lookup the 610 after you mentioned it and it actually prints a little faster. But as you say, for the same price on a home printer, the 970 still wins for me.

Ray

 

[mikling]

Well competition is wonderful. The MP970 is a nicely specified printer that really in my opinion is not really totally comparable to the Epson 680. I think for most people it's a distinctly better choice.

Let's see what the MP970 offers....much better and much faster text printing. If you're doing a lot of text printing the MP970 is a slam dunk over the 680.
What is also nice about the 970 though is that it offer full photo printing with six dye colors just like the Epson..but it is not an iP6700. Check the nozzle count .. it is slower. If you occasionally print pictures but want high quality output. Youve found your holy grail.
As for the refill situation... as others have pointed out, with lower cost printers..it's a no brainer. Two sets of refills or less and you've recouped enough to repurchase a new printer in the event you need warranty and can't get it because of refilling. With the higher initial cost of the 970 that will take longer.

So where does that leave the Epson?...interesting question. Well it sports CLARIA ink which is a TRUE breakthrough in that it is a synthetic dye ink with a serious patent on it ( it is expensive to make this dye ink) . Kudos to Epson on this. Near half or more the life of true pigment but in a dye. This is much better than Canon's Chromalife. So if printing photos that last is a must, Epson gets the nod and then there is the built in CD/DVD printing which is a plus over the Canon. The Epson prints decent text but you will need to use the higher resolution settings. It simply does not have enough nozzles to print text properly at high speed.

With the Epson though, you will be able to obtain (for a limited time, legally...count days) refillable cartridges that are easily refilled. these can be removed and OEM put back in for warranty reasons.

Also look at the feed mechanism and what you print. If you print sheet labels, the Epson has a hard time feeding part sheets. Canon does a much better job at this but HP is much much better than them both.

The Epson is more a photocentric printer adapted for office uses where it is used occasionally (part time) for office printing but with a compromise of dye ink that is not quite as sharp as black pigment ink. The Canon is a fully dedicated office printer and also a part time high quality photo printer where the only compromise is speed and only a slight compromise really. There is no compromise of output quality. On balance the Canon leaves little to be desired....If Canon had combined the head of the iP6700D onto this printer..WOW as it is now it's a wOw or maybe a WoW.

I have both an MP500 as well as an RX580. Both are not as highly specified as the models you present but the 580 is really very close to the 680. On balance for general use, the MP500 gets the nod. For dedicated photoprinting, the 580 easily gets the nod though . The Canon MP500 4 dye colors can't compare to the 6 colors on the Epson. With the MP970 this is not an issue as they are both 6 color printers.

 

[NOTS3W]

@ mikling: THAT's the kind of comparison I was looking for. When it all boils down, though, the only real advantage the Epson has is its Claria inks since with a little effort I can retrofit the Canon to print on CDs. We don't do a lot of any one type of printing. It's a mix of text, graphics, photos, plain paper, labels, general home printing jobs of a few sheets at a time.

Epson professes a 100+ year life on photo prints. With the Canon are we talking about 50 years or will I see noticable fading in just a few months?

So far, I'm still liking what I get in the MP970 for $159 over the Epson at $129 even with the Claria inks.

You mentioned HP. Considering the life I've gotten out of this 722C, my first choice was HP until I saw the prices for a comparable multipurpose printer. I can't justify the cost of, say, the HP 8180 for home use (and then the resolution still isn't as good as the Canon).

Thanks for pointing out the differences between the Epson and the Canon.

Ray