Why I think a waiting period is important when working on printers.

[joseph1949]

Why I think a waiting period is important when working on printers.

This thread is in response to the following thread:

ip5000 - black leaks out + into yellow cartridgeper replies #13 and #15.

I thought I would respond to reply #15 on its own thread, but I have decided that my response should have its own separate thread.

stratman wants to know why I think it is important to wait to perform a nozzle test after you have worked on a printer. This would include installing a flushed cart, installing a flushed print head, and other actions performed on a printer. Based on the threads (pertaining to Canon carts) on this site the advice is after installing a cart/print head/action one should perform a nozzle test immediately. I believe it is much better to wait before performing a nozzle test. The waiting period in my opinion should be at least a few hours long to as long as 24 hours.

I would wait a few hours after filling a cart before performing a nozzle test/print. I would wait at least 8 hours and maybe as long as 24 hours after installing a flushed cart and/or a flushed print head before performing a nozzle test/print.

So, how did I come about thinking that a waiting period is good? Well, I learned from my experience as a newbie. When I first started filling carts I made mistakes. One of the results of my mistakes is that I would have bad nozzle tests/ prints. When this happened I would ask for help on this site. The kind people on this site would give me some helpful advice. Most of the advice would evolve around using a filled cart that I knew was good or trying a virgin OEM cart.

Well, to make a long story short, none of the advice worked. So, what to do? I decided to clean the outside of the print head and clean up any ink inside the printer that had leaked from the original filled carts. After this, I reinstalled the original filled carts (the ones that had leaked inside the printer). Now mind you the only thing (see note) that I did with the original carts before I reinstalled them inside the printer was to clean around their ink outlets with a tissue. Note: I did place orange caps on the carts and cover the air vents with tape while I cleaned the outside of the print head and cleaned up the ink inside the printer.

I was thinking after I reinstalled the carts what I should doimmediately perform a nozzle test/print or wait before performing the nozzle test/print. I decided to wait. I would reinstall the carts and wait (8+ hours) overnight before performing a nozzle test/print. The next morning I performed the nozzle test. The nozzle test was good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note: One can have a bad nozzle test/print without the filled carts leaking. The simple act of waiting can stabilize the carts and give you a good nozzle test/print. By the simple act of waiting you can eliminate a problem where there was no real problem in the first place.

I learned three things from my experience with the carts that leaked:

1. The advice on this site may not work.

2. When the advice does not work it is best to stop and go back to square one and wait.

3. The best thing is to do after filling carts is to wait overnight before performing a nozzle test.

I think the main thing that you (i.e., by 'you' I mean newbie to master) should learn from my experience is that it is best to wait before performing a nozzle test/print. I believe a waiting period would give everything time to stabilize. Just about everything we do to a printer is a shot in the dark. By trial and error we learn what works and what doesnt. What works for you or me may not work for someone else. I believe that a waiting period is the common denominator for all the different experiences on this site. In other words when in doubtwait!!!!!!!

Your thoughts.

Thank you.

 

[stratman]

Joseph:

Thank you for your thoughts.

What refilling method are you using?

What is it you think a timeout accomplishes?

 

[fotofreek]

I take it that your primary lesson is to not use a cart immediately after refilling. Sorry to disagree with your findings but I haven't found it necessary to wait at all. When I began refilling nearly ten years ago I researched which printers would give excellent results and be easy to refill. With advice from Neil Slade I bought a Canon i960, a Computer Friends refill kit, and then MIS inks.

I refilled carts "on the fly." When the cart showed "low ink" I removed it, held a gloved finger over the outlet port, removed the top fill seal, injected ink, sealed the fill hole, let the cart drip til it stopped (thus equalizing the pressure), blotted the outlet port on a piece of paper on a flat surface (NOT a hand held piece of tissue as this might also blot some ink from the outlet filter), replace the cart in the printer, either let the printer do an automatic cleaning or run one if necessary, do a nozzle check, and resume printing. No tape on the air vent, no waiting. Worked just fine. Couldn't be easier. It isn't rocket science so I follow the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid!

I subsequently set up a few backup carts for each color, refilled them, and stored them in a sealed food carton with the original orange cap rubber-banded to the outlet port. No tape on the air vent at any time. When I use a refilled backup cart I remove the outlet port cover, hold the cart above some scrap paper in my waste basket to catch drips, blow gently into the air vent to test ink flow and get a bit of dripping, wait for the drips to stop, blot and folow the same steps as noted above.

If I am doing a long printing run and have run through all my backup carts for any given color I still do a refill "on the fly" right at my desk . Rubber band the orange cap to the outlet port and refill as described above. No tape on the air vent and no waiting. With some of the improvements that have been worked through on the Forum I can do this very quickly and keep working.

Through the years on the Forum we've participated in long threads to find the best ways to create and seal a fill hole, purge a cart, diagnose printing problems, care for a printhead, choose the best inks, explore different ink/paper fading characteristics, realize that OEM Canon carts are the best for refilling, reject the use of prefilled aftermarket prefilled carts that are often unreliable, use squeeze bottles instead of syringes, use storage clips for refilling, and other seemingly simple solutions that improved or sped up the process. As new members contribute and new printers and carts come on the market the previous information became the foundation for solving new problems and exploring new innovations.

Our tendancy is to refer questions to previous posts or threads rather than "reinvent the wheel" by repeating what has already been thoroughly explored. Without demeaning the person who posts a question we encourage their doing some homework. In the process they will learn more by seeing the dialogue by which improvements have been made. In my estimation, better than getting one person's approach is knowing the way by which techniques were developed and problems solved.

 

[ghwellsjr]

Joseph, you are correct that sometimes problems can go away by themselves if you just wait.

A few years ago, I replaced some cartridges on my mother's Canon MP780 printer and it immediately failed a nozzle check. I went to my house to get my maintenance supplies which took about 45 minutes and when I repeated the nozzle check without doing anything except waiting, everything was perfect. So I can see that at least in some situations, waiting can make a problem go away by itself.

I wouldn't, however, say that you should always wait. I think you should do a nozzle check and if everything is OK then you're good to go. If not, you can try some remedial actions. If they don't work after a reasonable time, then you should leave the printer alone overnight and try again the next day. In fact, I used to routinely give out this advice:

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=24451#p24451
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=24492#p24492
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=25117#p25117
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=25137#p25137
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=25752#p25752
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=25930#p25930
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=26365#p26365
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=26409#p26409
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=39424#p39424

Part of my advice was to let the printer do its own cleaning and repair. There is a risk in removing the print head and working on it. But over the years, I quit giving out this advice, mainly because I would get impatient and I realize most other people are too. So I thank you for bringing this to our attention again.

 

[pearlhouse]

Once agian Joseph I think you are thinking to hard and just bringing up a subject that has aleady been discussed and discussed again. I do however admire your want to keep posting your findings to keep us all up to date on the projects you are working on. Please keep up the good work. Im sure somebody out there is getting something out of it.

I agree with fotofreek waiting is not necessary as long as you are working with a refilled cart. that has not been allowed to dry out. By that I mean one that has not been capped with an orange port cover and allowed to sit in the open air for more than 30 min to an hour. You dont want to dry out that exposed sponge at the exit port. If you do let this get dry and you want to use this cart. than the best thing you can do is apply a few drops of ink directly to the sponge in the exit port and leave it set for a couple of minutes giving these drops time to soak in and mix with the internal sponge where it is still wet. Then turn the cart. over and install in the printer. Let sit a couple of minutes and then proceed to print your test prints.

Now if this was a properly stored cart. or an immediate refill then there should be no problem installing it and just start printing your nozzle check if you really feel you need to.
I think this whole refill thing is a very simple task and a lot of people are making way more of it than is necessary.

Protecting the vent by sealing it I think is a waste of time. You really dont want to get any ink in the channel that leads to the vent on top of the cart. If you do, this could plug the vent and cause real problems. After you have used the cart for a while you will possibly starve the print head of ink and then causing it to burn out. (Air has to come in some where to replace the ink that is being used. I really can think of only one situation where you might want to cover or seal off a vent. This would be if you were refilling using the German method and if you tend to overfill the cart. because you cant see if it is full or you just like to try and get as much ink into the cart. as possible. Myself I use a scale to keep track of how full the cart. is as I am filling it. By sealing the vent there will be air trapped in the air channel that can not be expelled so it would be pretty hard to get ink into this channel. The downside of doing this is that when refilling a cart there must be someplace for the air to go that is displaced with the ink. With the vent sealed the only place the air can get out is through the same hole you are using for refilling which can cause the ink to bubble out and make a mess.
So those are my conclusions and Im stickin to them.

 

[lin]

joseph1949, the moment you flush your printhead before, you will need to wait several hours after installing the cartridges before doing any nozzles check or start using the printhead. This is because the nozzles are very dry after you had flush and dry the printhead. You obviously need to wait several hours after inserting the cartridges for the ink Capillary action to take place so that the ink travel down. Thereafter (several hours had passed), and do a head cleaning to ensure that the ink that travel into the printhead really gets pull all the way into the ink channel and nozzles.

Now with the new Printhead you can use it immediately after removing from the seal vacuum bag, because they have the protective fluid (blue liquid) to cool the heating element as it start to boil/heat up to dispense the ink during initial use.

If you have search and read other threads you would not have realize that you need to wait before performing nozzles check for a printhead that you have flush personally.

And for cross containmination, you dont even need to flush printead. There are other ways to correct the problem.

 

[joseph1949]

Thank you for your replies.

To: stratman

Quote: What refilling method are you using?

I am using the top fill method. For a plug I use hot glue. To form the plug I use my coin/paper disc method. I use hot glue because of past experiences with rubber plugs. I have a low clearance problem with my printer (Canon PIXMA MX870). When I used the rubber plugs from my InkTec refill ink kit the printer would pull the plugs out of the carts. This happened because the caps where too high on the plugs. I looked into silicone plugs for printers with clearance problems. In my opinion the caps on the silicone plugs where too high. The caps had to be no higher than 1/16.

I thought about using tape, but I decided not to use the tape because I was afraid the tape would not give me a good seal (maybe a good seal initially but not later on). Also, I didnt want to deal with the residue from the tape.

I decided to use hot glue. The hot glue worked fine except it was a pain to get a low cap on the glue plug. With a little experimentally I came up with my coin/paper disc method. Naysayers said that I could not keep the coin from sticking to the glue. I got around this problem by using a releasing agent (petroleum jelly) on the coin. Now wasnt that simple!!!!!!!!

Any questions, naysayers?

Note: To all you naysayers who would still like to prove me wrong, you have to reapply the releasing agent each time you use the coin. I say this at the front end so I wont have to say it at the back end. Saying it at the back end creates ill will (who says I like to rub it in!? Not meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!).



Quote: What is it you think a timeout accomplishes?

stratman, please read below to get an idea what I think a timeout accomplishes.


To: fotofreek

I guess in hindsight I should have stated that my waiting period was for newbies and not so much for masters. I am referring to refilling carts and not filled, flushed carts. I still think it is a good idea to have a waiting period for flushed carts and flushed print headsbe you newbie or a master.

Here is what I do when I refill carts:

Note: I usually fill carts right before I go to bed.

1. Refill a cart by the top fill method. I use hot glue/coin/paper disc method to form a plug.

2. Turn cart upside down and then turn cart right side up and place tissue on glue plug. This procedure tests for a good/bad seal on the plug.

3. Assuming I have a good seal I remove the orange cap and air vent tape. After this operation I check for leakage from the outlet. If no leakage, I WAIT for a minute or two before placing the cart into the print head.

4. I do not perform a nozzle test immediately. I decide to WAIT. For how long, you say? Since I do my refills right before I go to bed the waiting period is usually for eight+ hours.

5. Perform a nozzle test/print as soon as I get up (more or less).


fotofreek, after reading your reply I believe our filling methods are basically the same (see Note below) except for step #4the overnight waiting period.

Note: fotofreek, you do not cover the air vent with tape. I cover the vent as soon as I pull the cart from the printer and leave it on until I place the cart inside the print head. I do this for two reasons:

1. Out of habit. I did it as a newbie so I still do it as a master.

2. Canon covers their carts air vents.

I have in the past forgotten to remove the tape from the air vent when I placed the cart into the print head. I found out my error only after I pulled the cart so I could refill it. I saw no sign of problems (good nozzle tests and good prints) with the cart during the period it was in the print head.

In short, what does the tape do? Not much, if anything.

To: ghwellsjr

With refilling carts, I believe that if you are a newbie you should wait before performing a nozzle test. If you are a master and only refilling carts you can wait or not wait. If you are a master your past experiences with filling carts should give you an excellent reference point in deciding to wait or not.

There are three reasons why I wait (overnight) when refilling carts:

1. My experience as a newbie.

2. I am super anal when it comes to working with printers.

3. C.Y.A. It is no fun to clean the inside of a printer and/or clean the outside of a print head. Waiting does not cost me a thing. I may go into a Zen-like mood when cleaning-up after a leaked cart, but I rather be in bed asleep. I would rather not have the aggravation of wondering what went wrong with my refilling. A waiting period means less aggravation!!!!!

Note: It has been over a year since I have had a cart to leak inside the printer. Like I said, I am super anal.

To: pearlhouse

Quote: Once agian Joseph I think you are thinking to hard and just bringing up a subject that has aleady been discussed and discussed again.

Please show me instances/replies on this site (Canon printers only, please) where people have talked about a waiting period exceeding a few minutes. Now understand, my replies do not count. Also, since I registered on 1/23/11, an instance/reply before my registration date should not count against me. I will let the people on this site decide the matter of my registration date.

I agree with you about the taping of the air vent. I see no real benefit in taping the air vent. I do it out of habit and the fact that Canon tapes their carts.

For you newbies, one should tape the air vent if one fills a cart and intends to store the cart for storage to be used at a later time.

When I fill a cart I also get bubbles coming out of the fill hole. Like you said, it makes a mess. I think the next time I fill a cart I will not tape the air vent and see what happens. The no-tape method will cause me to keep the cart a bit longer (maybe by two minutes for the first few times I do not use the tape) outside the printer before I place the cart inside the print head. Like I said, I am anal.

Note: My bubbles may be caused by how I fill the ink reservoirtoo fast, too slow, etc.

To: lin

Quote: If you have search and read other threads you would not have realize that you need to wait before performing nozzles check for a printhead that you have flush personally.

Your statement is a bit obtuse. I believe what you are saying is that if I personally flush a print head there is no need to wait. Also, I should have known this fact if I had done a search and read other threads (on this site).

lin, this is my translation of your statement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Here are my thoughts on your statement (as translated by me):

1. When a person on this site flushes a print head they install the print head and perform a nozzle test without a waiting period. I believe that this is common practice. There is no discussion of the pros and cons of a waiting period.

2. I do believe the number of times that person A has flushed persons B print head can be counted on one hand. One flushes one own print head.

3. If and when I flush a print head I will wait and wait and wait some more. Also, I will purchase a print head in the meantime.

lin, please tell me about the (protective fluid) blue liquid in the new print head. Please tell me how you obtain the knowledge about the blue liquid.


To: ghwellsjr

Here is your method for performing a nozzle test in shorthand:

1. Perform nozzle testif O.K.good to go.

2. Perform nozzle testif test is bad perform remedial actionsif remedial actions do not work, waittry again.

ghwellsjr, your method works if the person performing a nozzle test is not anal. I am anal so I would wait before performing a nozzle test. In my mind waiting increases your chances that a nozzle test will be good. On the flip side not waiting increases ones chances in having a bad nozzle test. My thinking is that if I do not wait and I have a bad nozzle test I will have to decide if I need to flush a print head to remedy the problem. Flushing a print head is where monsters be. What if I have a bad nozzle test on a flushed print head? Do I reflush a flushed print headthe mind boggles (an intelligent carrot)!!!!!!

stratman, the following is the condensed version of the above (from the beginning) reply:

Note: The condensed version should also tell you what I think a waiting period (timeout) accomplishes.

1. When it comes to filling carts (no flushing involved) a newbie should wait at least one hour (longer is better) before performing a nozzle test. After the waiting period the newbie should check for leakage from the cart. If no leakage, the nozzle test can be performed. I would also wait at least five minutes after filling the cart before placing the cart inside the print head. Why all this waiting? The waiting period gives the cart time to stabilize. It is a lot easier to wait than it is to clean the inside of the printer and clean the exterior of a print head if you have leakage from an unstable cart.

If you are a master you can do what you want to do. Break a leg!!!!!!! Knock yourself out!!!!!!But I still think a waiting period would be best!!!!!!

2. The following is for newbies AND masters.

If you have filled a flushed cart you should wait at least five minutes before placing the cart inside the print head. If after the five minute time period there is no leakage (a few drops is O.K.) you can proceed to place the filled, flushed cart inside the printer and wait at least eight hours before performing a nozzle test. After the eight hour waiting period you should check for leakage and if no leakage you can perform the nozzle test. Again, the waiting period helps to stabilize the cart.

3. The following is for masters only. If you are a newbie please ask a thousand questions to the people on this site before attempting to flush a print head.

If you are a master and you want to flush a print head please think like a smart newbieask questions before flushing a print head. Assuming you have done all the smart things to flush a print head you can install the print head. You then install the carts (no leaks, please). At this point I would wait 24 hours before performing a nozzle test. You need the time for the print head to stabilize. This goes double if you are installing filled, flushed carts. Question: Why would anyone want to use filled, flushed carts in a newly flushed print head? The mind boggles at such a scenario. You have an unknown with a flushed cart(s). You have a huge unknown with a flushed print headtoooooooo many unknowns. Eliminate one of the unknowns, please!!!!!!! Please use new OEM carts or filled (not flushed) carts you know are good.

Question: How do you know that a cart is good (i.e. no leakage problems)? Well, you need two printers. Remove the good carts (you have performed a nozzle test and the test was good) from the second printer. Place the good carts into the flushed print head of the first printer and wait 24 hours before performing a nozzle test. You need to place carts into the print head of the second printer as soon as you move the good carts into the flushed print head. Get all that? You do not want to dry out the inlet screens on the second printers print head. I will make it easy for younever leave the inlet screens on any print head inside a printer uncovered for an extended period of time. If you are flushing a print headyour call.

I believe that it is important to give a flushed print head all the time in the world to stabilize before performing a nozzle test. Does it hurt to wait? No. Would it hurt not to wait? Maybe. By flushing a print head you have already done something that is unpredictable. By waiting you can make it a bit less unpredictable (in my opinion).

4. I believe that you should have a waiting period before you perform an action on a printer. I believe you should have a waiting period after you perform an action. Every time you perform an action you should think if you need a waiting period or not. A waiting period neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

5. One should try everything under the sun to fix a problem before flushing a print head. If I think I need to flush a print head I would first buy a print head and while waiting for the print head to arrive I would flush the old print head. One can assume that at the end of flushing a print head you will have a bad print head.

Any questions?


Thank you.

 

[lin]

Thank you for your replies.

To: lin

Quote: If you have search and read other threads you would not have realize that you need to wait before performing nozzles check for a printhead that you have flush personally.

Your statement is a bit obtuse. I believe what you are saying is that if I personally flush a print head there is no need to wait. Also, I should have known this fact if I had done a search and read other threads (on this site).

lin, this is my translation of your statement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Here are my thoughts on your statement (as translated by me):

1. When a person on this site flushes a print head they install the print head and perform a nozzle test without a waiting period. I believe that this is common practice. There is no discussion of the pros and cons of a waiting period.

2. I do believe the number of times that person A has flushed persons B print head can be counted on one hand. One flushes one own print head.

3. If and when I flush a print head I will wait and wait and wait some more. Also, I will purchase a print head in the meantime.

lin, please tell me about the (protective fluid) blue liquid in the new print head. Please tell me how you obtain the knowledge about the blue liquid.

I did not say "There is no need to wait". Instead I mean if one had flush a printhead you need to wait before performing nozzles check for a printhead that you have flush personally"

If you have search and read other threads you would not have realize that you need to wait before performing nozzles check for a printhead that you have flush personally.

The word 'NOT' after 'would' should not be there. Typo insertion of the word 'not'.

Just because there is not a thread created to discuss pro or cons doesn't mean there is no mention about waiting.

Have it occur to you, If I said there is no need to wait why my first paragraph say

joseph1949,, the moment you flush your printhead before, you will need to wait several hours after installing the cartridges before doing any nozzles check or start using the printhead. This is because the nozzles are very dry after you had flush and dry the printhead. You obviously need to wait several hours after inserting the cartridges for the ink Capillary action to take place so that the ink travel down. Thereafter (several hours had passed), and do a head cleaning to ensure that the ink that travel into the printhead really gets pull all the way into the ink channel and nozzles.

As to the protective fluid (protective fluid), when you open a Brand New Printhead (NOT refurbished Printhead), you can see the blue protective liquid.

 

[ghwellsjr]

For you newbies, one should tape the air vent if one fills a cart and intends to store the cart for storage to be used at a later time.

This is not a good idea. Even if you have a good reason to tape the air vent during filling, you should remove that tape when you're done filling. If you are going to store the cartridge, you must make sure you have a good seal on the outlet port but no seal on the air vent port. It doesn't matter that Canon seals the air vent because they also have a strong seal on both the air vent and on the outlet port plus they seal the entire cartridge in an air tight plastic wrapper. There is no way that you can replicate those three seals. What's going to happen if you perfectly seal the air vent is that the daily air pressure fluctuations will force air in and out of the cartridge through the outlet port and that will quickly dry out your cartridge. Let the air vent do its job to prevent drying out the ink in the cartridge but you do need a perfect seal on the outlet port. A perfect seal on the outlet port isn't hard to do if you leave the air vent open but if you seal both, you will create a tug-o-war between them and chances are the outlet port will lose.

 

[ghwellsjr]

Joseph, one other point I want to make clear if it isn't already clear: never leave a print head with ink in it exposed to the air for more than a couple minutes. This means if you remove a cartridge to refill it, make sure you get the whole process done quickly so that you can return the filled cartridge back to the print head within a couple minutes. If you can't do this, you should put some other cartridge in the print head so that ink doesn't dry out inside the print head.

This also means that if you're going to remove the print head from the printer to flush it or for any other reason, don't leave it exposed to air for any substantial length of time or you will surely have lots of clogged nozzles. Do whatever you're going to do as quickly as possible.