Using ArgyllCMS + Colormunki to produce excellent printer profiles

[Roy Sletcher]

Thank You Roy and The Hat! English isn't my native language so I don't always see and understand the nuances. But I try to learn!

No one have answered my question about matte papers. I'll try to answer it myself and it doesn't seem to have to do with how the profile is made!

******CONTENT DELETED TO SAVE BANDWIDTH******

What's your experience of the settings in the profile?

Per

So glad you returned. I have to commend you and the many other posters whose first language is not English, yet still participate and enrich this and many other sites and forums.

You have asked too many deep questions to answer in the brief concept of this forum, so offer the following instead:

First, the bad news. Colour rendition, colour reproduction and colour management, is far too complex a subject to discuss competently in a thread like this no matter how knowledgeable the participants. Our brief comments are only small elements of an overall complex subject. Truth be told our necessarily brief and limited comments on this forum may spread more misinformation than facts about the subject.

Second the warning! The photography and post processing forums in general are full of incorrect, misleading and frankly wrong information about colour and colour management. Much if probably due to the limitations described in the paragraph above rather than a deliberate intent to mislead participants.

Thirdly, what to do about it!
Read all you can find on Colour Management from authoritative or trusted sources. The subject is simple in principle, but gets complicated quickly when applied. Also human colour vision is another problematical variable when trying to discuss results. There are lots of good sources on the www.

For a good start try the following sites. if you are intested I could add others. ALWAYS VERIFY THE SOURCE IS COMPETENT before spending a lot if time assimilating the content.

Rendering intent from a very good site. Their other comments on colour management are worth the read.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-space-conversion.htm

Same site - colour management and printing
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/color-management-printing.htm

Simple primer - Old, but still relevant in simple language. From our Aussie friends.
http://flashgordonphotography.com.a...ction-to-colour-management-for-photographers/

Hope this is helpful.

RS

 

[RogerB]

When I look at the image above I do very much prefer the curve with BPC on. Doesn't that contradict what you say in the quote?

What I was trying to say is that it's not always necessary or desirable to use BPC. If you are printing a high-key image with nothing darker than L*=20 (48, 48, 48 in sRGB space) then even the darkest tones will be reproduced accurately on the matte paper that I used as an example. Turning BPC on would re-map L*=20 to something nearer to 30 - a very visible difference.

For me, the downside of Perceptual rendering and BPC is that they take no acccount of the image content. In many cases you can achieve a more pleasing print by selectively editing the image using, for example, luminosity masks. Of course this means spending time on each individual image. If you are batch processing then either Perceptual or Colorimetric+BPC will give the best "average" print. Your choice!

Finally, I fully agree with Roy's comment above, and the references that he cites are useful reading.

 

[The Hat]

First, the bad news. Colour rendition, colour reproduction and colour management, is far too complex a subject to discuss competently in a thread like this no matter how knowledgeable the participants. Our brief comments are only small elements of an overall complex subject. Truth be told our necessarily brief and limited comments on this forum may spread more misinformation than facts about the subject.

Wow Roy, I will have to correct you there because the members who post here may not be renowned professionals, but they’re sincere, genuine and know what there’re talking about, because they’ve walked the walk and wore the tee shirts.

This thread was hijacked earlier but is now back on track and from my limited experience has all the hallmarks of some of the best advice given on any forum, yes there’s mistakes made here but are correctable given time to analyse and then report back. (which they do)

It deals in depth with everyday experiences that the semi-pro photographers has to cope with while trying to display their masterpieces, the advice freely given is simple, down to earth and doesn’t get to high and mighty to a point where the student/reader get lost and fumbles.

I am someone who doesn’t like profiling but am still intrigued by the little twists and tweaks that these guys do hour after hour just to get that “YES” moment, and best of all, they then share it with the rest of us who are interested, that priceless..
Guys give you selves a clap on the back

Rant over..

 

[Emulator]

There are some that contribute original work and some that just criticise others efforts.

There doesn't seem to be a PK rating that differentiates between them, perhaps there ought to be!

 

[Roy Sletcher]

Wow Roy, I will have to correct you there because the members who post here may not be renowned professionals, but they’re sincere, genuine and know what there’re talking about, because they’ve walked the walk and wore the tee shirts.

This thread was hijacked earlier but is now back on track and from my limited experience has all the hallmarks of some of the best advice given on any forum, yes there’s mistakes made here but are correctable given time to analyse and then report back. (which they do)

It deals in depth with everyday experiences that the semi-pro photographers has to cope with while trying to display their masterpieces, the advice freely given is simple, down to earth and doesn’t get to high and mighty to a point where the student/reader get lost and fumbles.

I am someone who doesn’t like profiling but am still intrigued by the little twists and tweaks that these guys do hour after hour just to get that “YES” moment, and best of all, they then share it with the rest of us who are interested, that priceless..
Guys give you selves a clap on the back

Rant over..

OK - Guess I phrased that badly - Something manage to do all the time.

What I was trying to respond to was a post I understood to mean that somebody wanted to learn the complexities of Colour management from scratch, followed by a range of relatively complex questions on rendering intent and other colour subjects..

My comments were meant to convey THIS IS NOT THE SITE FOR LEARNING THIS SUBJECT FROM SCRATCH. He would be better served getting that sort of data from specialist sites. It is my honest opinion which I think I conveyed respectfully, and others are free to disagree. I seek knowledge and understanding not consensus.

Sorry if it appeared I was denigrating this site. Not my intention at all.

This is a great site and resource, but it is not a site for comprehensive tutorials for neophytes, and I was trying to steer him towards sites with more basic information.

Of course I also note that only one person has posted to explain one of the multiple questions he asked.

I await with interest more responses or answers to his questions so I too can learn something, although to date only one person has responded.

As for claps on the back - remember it is only 18 inches from a kick in the pants.

Respectfully

Roy Sletcher

 

[The Hat]

Well-spoken Roy, so get your foot ready, I can take it…

 

[nrdlnd]

Hi,
The comments from Roger has been very helpful and the links from Roy are valuble I think not only for me. Actually I think it's quite relevant to say: "Do your homework" like Roy did. Theory is one thing but it's very interesting to hear how other more experienced than me deal with the theory!

I'm trying to build a complete chain for my work. I have a fine camera with fine lenses that has a profile in the raw converter I'm working with (it's not from Adobe). I have a modern display that can cover at least the AdobeRGB colorspace and it's calibrated. Then I have a good printer. I've just started printing and I found this thread about profiling that has been very helpful and I've done my own experiments. Then came the question up; how to deal with these profiles? I just have used the "Perceptual" rendering intent as I thought everyone did that! Also I haven't fully explored the "soft proof" option but it's possible to do in the program I have. This program covers most of what I need (even possible to work in layers etc.) so I seldom have to use Photoshop (that I don't have) or Gimp (that I have). For me this is a dream that have come true. I'm soon retired. I have been a photographer (even professionally when I was young) in my whole life and worked in the darkroom, but I couldn't work in colour that I can do now.

The profile I'm doing now with my i1 Pro is in two steps. I have made charts on A5 and Half Letter with 342 patches. I've used this profile as preconditioning when I make the end profile on A4 or Letter with 720 patches (on Letter 722). I will see how much better this profile is with this extra step and if it's worthwhile. Doesn't take much longer time as I don't think it's necessary to let the chart for the preprofile dry as long time as the end chart before reading the chart.

EDIT: I made this profile for the Canson Baryta Photographique and printed it with both rendering intents. I think this profile is the best so far and with relative colorimetric and BPC on. When I softproof this one is the most near the original image I made after colour correction. What I don't like is that the two rendering intents differ so much in the colour of the skin (perceptual is warmer, more red) in this case. As I make my pictures to be viewed in the D50 illuminant (5000K) I have to invest in such a light. It never stops...complicated with colour! I will later make a comparison if there is any difference of instead making a profile based on a chart with 1440 patches on two sheets (instead of 720 on one sheet).

EDIT: I've compared the following profiles for the Canson Baryta Photographique and a test chart: Canson profile, my own profiles with 720 patches, two step with 342 preconditioning 1½ A4 papers) and 1440 patches (2 A4 papers). All are printed with Relative Colorimetric rendering intent with Black Point Compensation on. My 3 own profiles are rather similar and all usable. The Canson profile is a little warmer and very good but not better than my own profiles that are more neutral with my eyes. The 1440 patches and the two step chart are a little better (but only marginally). Of these two the two step may be a little better in the shadows but it's not easy to see (they are interchangeable). The one with 720 patches is almost as good. See also my later post where I've made 760 patches 7mm wide without crop and resize in a separate photo editor.

Thank you for all tips and understanding!

 

[supergrobi]

Hi,

i´m new here, from germany. I got my Colormunki this week and made my first steps with it this week, yesterday i made my first profile for the "SIHL Baryt Satin 290gsm" with 750 Patches on one A4 Page.
I´m printing on HP printers (Z3200 & B9180) and got a lot of papers (A4/A3) from a friend, my B9180 is not one of the newest printers, but still a really great machine. I got him last month an he was still in his original box, brand new, everything sealed, never unpacked. The Z3200 has an builtin X-Rite i1, but i have no profiles for my B9180. So i decided to buy the Colormunki, best value for the price i think.

I used this commands from pharmacist:

targen -v -d2 -G -e8 -B8 -g128 -f750 "your profile chart name"

printtarg -v -ii1 -a0.9 -A0.6 -T360 -m2 -P -p220x325 "your profile chart name"

I cropped and resized the page to A4, it worked really well with my home made ruler, the print looks really good, i bit to dark, i will give it another try with an other rendering intent for the next tests, it has been to late yesterday evening.

Greetings,
Matthias

 

[nrdlnd]

the print looks really good, i bit to dark

What rendering intent did you use in the printer driver? My little experience with ArgyllCMS is that it becomes darker when you use "Perceptual". Try "Relative Rendering Intent" with Black Point compensation (you can try also without maybe with this paper) when you print with your profile and see if it becomes better. If Argyll didn't complain when you made your profile the result may be similar if you make a new chart. Impressed that you managed to read 750 patches on one A4 chart. I didn't dare to put more than 720 on my chart for the i1 Pro meter not to get misreadings! Maybe it's the same innards in the Colormunki?

Per

 

[supergrobi]

Hi Per,

yes, i used "perceptual" with BPC, thanks for the advice, i will try it this weekend

It has been my first profile, the reading worked really well without any errors, i just tried the setting from pharmacist and followed his instructions, i was very happy that it worked without any problems.

I think the i1 Pro can also read 750 Patches, if the Colormunki can read it, i don´t know how much the innards differ, i can´t find any technical details about the colormunki to compare it with the i1 Pro.

Yesterday i installed the original Colormunki Software on my Surface Tablet, just to give it an try. I calibrated the screen and the result has been fine, compared to my Dell U2711 (calibrated with ArgyllCMS). I profiled a cheaper photo paper and got a nice result with the colormunki software, better than expected. But the surface screen is not very good, nice resolution and viewing angles, but only 80% sRGB.

Greeting,
Matthias