Ultra K / Ultra black pigment ink from Precision Colors

[nche11]

Both sheets of print are completely dry now. I looked over both of them again I found that there is some trace of smearing on the Xerox paper caused by my light rub with my finger. It wasn't clear when the paper was still wet. It is visible when dry now. My conclusion, based on this not very scientific test, is that there is some ink transferring from one surface to another on the regular plain paper. But there is no smudging when the text was rubbed when the paper was still wet. On the Xerox Colorlok paper there is no sign of ink transfer between paper surface. But there is some smudging when the text was rubbed when the paper was still wet.

The print on the regular plain paper was printed a few days ago before the test today. So it should be totally dry before the test. I printed the Xerox Colorlok paper about 10 minutes before the test. It looked dry but it was probably not completely dry before the test. It should not matter because the print was washed by water for about 5 seconds during the test.

As far as Stumped2's problem I can't get anything that helps answering it. He used a different paper. It may be the paper that caused the problem.

 

[Stumped2]

I am using OEM Canon ink. The document that I print is mainly black text with a black box outlining parts of it. There is also a color logo. The black should be pigment & the logo dye. I have done a very wet finger smear test after letting the ink dry for 1 hour, 3 hrs, 12 hrs, 18 hrs & 24 hrs. Did not seem to make any difference, but of course this was not a very scientific test.

The color logo actually smeared very little which surprised me. The black pigment smeared a lot which also surprised me. This was done on 2 brands of ColorLok paper (Georgia Pacific & HP). I later tried the smear test on non-ColorLok Georgia Pacific and thought the color logo smeared about the same as ColorLok and the black somewhat less compared to ColorLok. Again a judgment call. I do not see anything on either ColorLok package that indicates which side to print on.

I only print & mail out these documents twice a month, so it may take weeks to get them back & collect enough evidence to see how the non-ColorLok paper is working. A few forms have come back to me. Some look a bit better, but not much. Some look about the same.

Heres the links I posted elsewhere where someone was having the same problem.

Be sure to read the last message in this thread.
http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24694

The author also refers to this.
http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=168227#post168227

And he has pictures here.
http://www.polisource.com/misc/ink-transfer-Staples-v-HP.pdf

Maybe it does have something to do with how the post office handles the mail.

IIRC, previously ghwellsjr mentioned he never had a problem with highlighter smearing when using any 3rd party ink on non-ColorLok paper. I would think highlighter smearing is similar to my wet finger smearing in that both cases the ink gets wet.

I did try printing with the paper type set to matte and it really slows down the printing. I just printed a test sheet of half pigment, flipped it 180 & fed it back through with paper set to matte. Ill give both inks the wet finger smear test after the ink dries a while.

The person who sent out the documents before I took over uses an HP printer with 3rd party ink, but he has no idea if its dye or pigment. And his paper does not state ColorLok. I have all the old paperwork & none of his documents have the ink transfer like I have.

I will have to try some 3rd party ink & will post a separate message regarding that.

 

[ghwellsjr]

To summarize my findings concerning printing on plain paper--

On plain paper without ColorLok and using any inks besides Canon OEM BCI-3eBk:

There is no smearing or running of the pigment black ink with water or a highlighter. There is smearing and running of the dye color inks.

On plain paper with ColorLok and using any inks including Canon OEM BCI-3eBk:

There is no smearing or running of the pigment black ink with water but there is with a highligher. There is no smearing of the dye color inks with water or with a highlighter.

On plain paper with ColorLok but telling the printer you are using matte:

There is no smearing or running of anything under any condition (except a slight fuzziness of highlighted text that then gets wet). I'm talking about really wet, so wet, the paper is all warped and practically unusable. What we're really trying to avoid is an occasional drop of water or when someone places a wet cup that leaves a ring of water on the page.

I really think you should just print your next mailing using ColorLok and telling the printer you are using matte paper. Try that (I know it will take a lot longer) and then you can decide about switching ink. This will be a lot easier than deciding now what ink to use and how to refill. You may decide to refill your wide pigment cartridge with dye black ink.

 

[Tin Ho]

Stumped2:

How were your mails mailed? Were they USPS Media Mail? If you mailed them by Media Mail they would sit in the postal service warehouse, trains and sort facilities for many days. Moisture condensation can be the problem to you. Nche's test only wetted the paper short period of time. Moisture condensation can wet the prints for hours or days. Perhaps the pigment ink could not hold up when soaked by condensation for long term. Ghwellsjr's suggests to print with dye ink. Dye ink stands no chance for the moisture condensation either. It would be worse. Try a different pigment ink. Use different envelops that can better protect your print from moisture condensation.

 

[Stumped2]

When I smear with a wet finger, it is really wet & does cause the paper to wrinkle. Doing this the pigment black has always smeared more than the dye.

Selecting matte paper really slows down printing. Ill do at least some of the next mailing with the matte setting & see what happens.

The paperwork is mailed out first class & gets returned the same way. I have been doing this for a year which means through summer & winter. Maybe there is a difference because of humid weather but I never thought about tracking that parameter.

Maybe the PGI-220BK ink is worse with ink transfer than most other inks. I thought about trying the HobbiColor PMT-BK or Precision Colors 1128.

Its been 6 hours since I printed the black pigment and black dye test text letter on ColorLok paper. I cut off a piece of each & held it under running water. There was no smearing with either sample probably because all the loose ink was flushed away.

The pigment got lighter probably because some of the ink got washed away. But it still looks sharp even when magnified. It appears some pigment just gets washed off from the paper surface & whatever is embedded in the paper stays there.

The dye got very fuzzy & bled through to the other side. But it still remained almost as dark as before the test. It appears the dye has penetrated into the paper and therefore does not get washed away. The water just makes the dye spread.

When selecting matte paper in order to use dye the printer goes very slow. Is it going slow to let the dye ink dry or because its laying down a lot of ink because dye might be lighter than pigment? If I use dye ink in the pigment cart obviously the printer will go a lot faster (presuming I use the plain paper setting). Does it lay down less ink compared to using the matte setting because it thinks its using pigment? Since dye is coming out will it be dark enough? Did that make sense?

nch11 - you mentioned your dye ink washes off under water but the pigment will not smear. My OEM Canon inks behave just the opposite. You said you are using HobbiColor black pigment ink. What dye inks & what printer are you using?

 

[nche11]

The dye ink is Hobbicolors UW8. I don't think you should use dye ink to print your documents. Keep in mind that color dyes are soluble to water. I agree that moisture is the culprit. It is surprising that OEM PGI-229 ink is easily smeared like that. Dye ink would not do better. Try a different pigment ink such as Hobbicolors PMT-BK or Image Specialist whichever is easier for you to get. Tin Ho made a good point worth some thinking. It is the moisture that is causing the ink to smear.

 

[ghwellsjr]

Ghwellsjr's suggests to print with dye ink. Dye ink stands no chance for the moisture condensation either. It would be worse.

On normal plain paper, yes, I agree, but I was talking about plain paper treated with ColorLok, specifically HP Bright White Inkjet paper. Until you try it, you shouldn't make any claim about it. I know it sounds unbelievable but it's true. I don't know if it works as well on other brands of paper.

 

[ghwellsjr]

I thought about trying the HobbiColor PMT-BK or Precision Colors 1128.

I would recommend the 1128. I would hate to see you have a clogged purge system several years from now by using the HobbiColors PMT-BK.

When selecting matte paper in order to use dye the printer goes very slow. Is it going slow to let the dye ink dry or because its laying down a lot of ink because dye might be lighter than pigment? If I use dye ink in the pigment cart obviously the printer will go a lot faster (presuming I use the plain paper setting). Does it lay down less ink compared to using the matte setting because it thinks its using pigment? Since dye is coming out will it be dark enough? Did that make sense?

It is going slow because the length of the nozzle head pattern is about half for dye ink compared to the pigment black and because the normal pigment black only uses two passes whereas the typical dye uses four passes, so you can expect a four-to-one difference in speed. The amount of ink laid down for colors is generally more for photo papers than for plain but the pigment nozzles are much bigger than the dye nozzles so its hard to know which feature will win out, if and when you put dye black ink in the wide cartridge.

 

[Tin Ho]

Ghwellsjr, what I said wasn't a claim. It is generally true that dye ink stands no chance against moisture. I did not specifically say any specific paper. I don't know HP bright white inkjet paper is so different. Can you do a test to dip a print in water for a minute and see what happens? Will the dye ink hold up? Print half a page with pigment black ink and the other half with dye black ink. You can compare and find out which one is not washes off. I would love to know the answer. Thank you.

 

[nche11]

I found that it makes very little sense to recommend to print text documents using a black dye ink. Whoever made such recommendation should understand why HP, Canon Lexmark and Brother printers are all made with a black pigment ink cartridge for printing black text documents. Even if one paper showing a remarkable character being able to hold up the ink against water it is not a worthwhile solution to consider. You want to find a real cause of the problem and find a solution that fixes the problem and allows you to print on any plain paper.