Questions about refilling Pro-100 carts: fading over time?

[jtoolman]

To me it comes down to this. Oh and by the way if anyone wants to see my "Real" prints, just go to youtube and type "cheo1949" and you will reach my channel then go to " Print Show & Tell " playlist and enjoy.

Now, here is my take. I too have framed shots all over the house and in my print room I simply have bare prints on the walls. I get some fairly bright indirect light from my west facing window and it is bright enough that I can video tape without any extra lighting.

Nothing has faded. And I use everything from OEM to PC to cheap Chinese dye inks.
I print on everything I can find cheap. Red River - EPSON packs of assorted papers through Craigslist and EBAY, CANON papers bought through the amazing sales - Inkpress paper abtained in sample packs, even some weird "No Name" EBAY finds. I do not have anything by the FANCY paper Manufacturers!

So far in my Print Show & Tells series I show prints as old as 6-8 years. Done on any of my now 24 printers.
Using like I said MANY types and makes of inks.
Watch some of the videos and you can be the judge.
Oh and even if the ones that are currently hanging do fade a tiny bit in say the next 3-4 years, I can simply reprint them.

Recently I did a Film Camera trio of videos. I showed some of my silver prints and guess what. They ALL look degraded. I too great pains to store those prints in as best a condition as I could. Rememebr, I've been into photography and photo lab work since I was a young dump kid of 11. Now I am 66. I worked as a photographer in the Army while active duty for 22 years, then I stepped over to a civilian position in the biological reseach side but also did scientific photograhy and nothing but documentary work.

I still have some of my prints that I produced during those years. NONE of them have survived.
Now for the truth. Chemically processed or produced prints simply will fade as a result of the remants of chemicals that no matter how long you try to wash off the prints will never leave the paper fibers. This got better with the RC silver based papers but still the problem remained.

If you use good Inkjet Photo Printing Papers that are Acid Free, print with either OEM or GOOD 3rd party alternative inks, you actually end up with a MUCH more archival print that you could ever expect with the old silver process as MUCH as I loved it!!!

And before anyone begins to question me about archival wet lab practices, I produced prints for the Hite House while on a 3 year strech at the Army AudioVisual Center - Pentagon. And not only this those prints of sitting presidents had to "Match" each presiden't "Standard Skin Tone", they also needed to last and I mean LAST!!!!!!!!!!!! I also worked for N.A.T.O. head quarters and the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe or S.H.A.P.E. in Belgium and all of our work had to be top notched and last!
The very best we had then, does not even come close to what any of us at home can currently produce.

So my point is that for the regular "Joe" ( like me ) today's inkjet digital printing process with a good printer, good papers, good inks, will easily out last and outperform anything I produced in the past in the wet lab.

So as it was recommended earlier... just print and have fun!! Don't worry about it.

Joe

 

[The Hat]

+100 Joe..

 

[GrantCee]

Thanks, Roy, you've come closest to answering my question!

Some people have reported prints fading within months or even weeks, but that seems to be the exception.

This is my main concern. If there's noticeable fading in a few months, it makes no sense for me to give up what everyone agrees are the most stable dye inks (Canon OEM) on the market. I'd like to know more about those people who experienced such rapid fading; any threads you can link to?

 

[martin0reg]

...
So as it was recommended earlier... just print and have fun!! Don't worry about it.

Joe

So I have fun printing test photos, exposure it in direct sunlight or under my UV-bulb and compare it to those kept in the dark...

But seriously I think fading really is (and will be) a point in photography.
Regarding silver prints of our early days in the wet dark room, I only did B&W, color analyzing and the wet process for color prints was very complicated, I was a fan of Kodak Tri-X pushed to 800-1600 ASA by extended developing. And if I did the last flush of the paper correct, these prints look fine after 30 - 40 years..
Wet color prints are a different process and I agree that they use to fade much faster, probably faster than an average print of todays home inkjet printers.
So yes, a standard digital print is more stable than the normal user might expect or actually need. But as we know how much more stable a true archival print could be - what's wrong to do fading tests and "raising the bars" for resistance against ozone and UV?
I had prints that faded after really short time, printed without care in the beginning of my personal digital darkroom. But since then the longevity has improved in general, for paper and ink, amongst others a result of such fading discussions and threads, I think.

 

[jtoolman]

To ensure the logevity of B&W prints that were made in pure fiber based silver paper, not RC paper, we would wash for about 30 in a continuous water wash ( extremely wasteful ) we would then run the prints through a so called Hypo Eliminator reagent for about 20 minutes under constant agitation, followed by yet a second wash for about 60 minutes.
Then we would test the back of the print with a reagent that I don't remember the name, and if there was ANY trace of Sodium Thiosulfate ( Hypo ) left over then you would get a color reaction. If no color change occured then the paper was considered free of any remaining Hypo which is the biggest cause of Silver image fading. Since B&W silver images are basically composed of reduced and tarnished ( Black ) metalic silver granules, the only way to keep them from fading is to make sure that the is NO hypo left in the paper fibers. Hypo was and is extremely dificult to remove. The only way was by using this hypo eliminator which basically would bind with any left over hypo creating a different compound that was extremely soluble in water.

When a B&W silver fades, basically the tarnished ( reduced ) silver granules go from black to a mirror like state as if you polished them. You now have a silvery look to where once was black!

With Color printing you dealt with the so called Bleach/Fix which was a misture of Potassium Dicromate
( I think ) and Sodium Thiosulfate.
Even more difficult to wash away that just hypo alone.

All of my old C prints that I made while I was stationed in SHAPE, NATO, Belgium and the Pentagon are quite faded and shifted!
Nothing that can be done about that. Even if you would 100% laminate them the damage comes from within and not due to evironmental sources as with our digital prints.

I don't know about those who have had prints fade in a few months, all I know is that amost nothing I currently ( Digitally Produced ) have has even begun to show any signs of fading or damage.

Of course they are kept well protected.

Joe

 

[Roy Sletcher]

Thanks, Roy, you've come closest to answering my question!


This is my main concern. If there's noticeable fading in a few months, it makes no sense for me to give up what everyone agrees are the most stable dye inks (Canon OEM) on the market. I'd like to know more about those people who experienced such rapid fading; any threads you can link to?

Truth be told all these report are anecdotal with no controls in place so take them at face value with a generous application of salt. Sorry no attributions available.

In related news and again a personal opinion. I find that the OEM purists prefer to lump all refiller's into the same category. This is convenient for them as it sets up a "strawman" target for their ridicule, but is patently a false premise.

The reality is that there are several categories of refiller's starting at the cheapskate bottom feeders who buy the $9.99 Universal all purpose guaranteed to work refill kit, which claims to refill any printer cartridge every time without fail. This is where I started over 10 years ago.

At the top end of the refill chain are people like us who take a measured evaluation. of methodology, tools and results looking for a best practice approach measuring quality, economy and efficacy where possible.

nuff for now.

rs

 

[MP640]

....
Here is a test print I did back in 2011 using three different printers, this print has been in my hallway for 5 years, how much has it faded ?, all the inks were 3rd party I.S. inks…

[ATTACH]3983[/ATTACH] click to enlarge.

That's a really nice print to have in your hallway.

I'm thinking about framing a nozzle check for in my living room...

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

The reality is that there are several categories of refiller's starting at the cheapskate bottom feeders who buy the $9.99 Universal all purpose guaranteed to work refill kit, which claims to refill any printer cartridge every time without fail. This is where I started over 10 years ago.

At the top end of the refill chain are people like us who take a measured evaluation. of methodology, tools and results looking for a best practice approach measuring quality, economy and efficacy where possible.

I think that's one part of the situation - I'm not saying 'problem', and there are the counterparts to that - a wide range of customers from the knowledgeable to the bargin hunters with no or some or some more understanding of inks, refill etc. And I must admit - as a customer - it is not always easy or even possible to find out in which category a supplier falls judged by their internet presence, there is quite some marketing speech and promises without a backup by specification or test results. Just to give an example - a supplier offers three different types of Epson dye inks categorized as budget, performance and premium at different prices , but does not give any hint how those inks actually differ on the paper - gamut, longevity whatever, I don't know what I would get for a premium price, I then would rather buy somewhere else , and/or I get the 5$ ink from China and can't complain. This business is not simple at all.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I did a quick fade test with a mix of 3rd party Epson inks - they start fading after a few days,
http://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/which-pigment-ink-for-epson-1500w.9323/page-13#post-89984

Epson and Canon inks differ in their solvents, the actual dyes are most likely the same or very similar, OEM dye inks perform by far better in most cases than any 3rd party inks, so when fading is of major concern I directly would recdommend to switch to a printer with pigment inks - to Canon or Epson depending on preference, refill options - cartridges and inks etc

 

[The Hat]

I'm thinking about framing a nozzle check for in my living room...

That’s a great idea and it might one day be consider a rare masterpiece, but only if you sign it..

All inks fade no matter which one you use, the real secret is to find a paper that works well with your particular type of ink and this can reduce the fading down considerably, the OEM brand is by far the best ink and will last the longest when used exclusively with OEM paper..