Need non-OEM ink recomendations for use printing on "adventure paper"

[ghopper]

I've searched the forum and was rather surprised that this use was not discussed, and was equally surprised not to find (wondering just how I should have searched...) any summary of manufacturers and ink sources.

I'm resurrecting (maybe starting to use again is more accurate) an Epson R380 that I have had for a while in order to start printing topographical maps, and other information on "tear-proof" and "weather-resistant" adventure paper. I'm hoping that someone has some experience with inks and this printable membrane sheeting. My past experience with aftermarket ink and this adventure paper has not been good. More about the paper below.

As side note number one, I also want to use the printer (as I have in the past) to print labels on CDs and DVDs. I also want to take some of the load off my dye-sub printer (a Kodak 8110) to put off replacing it for a while longer, so I think I want to print more photos on this printer as well

Side note number two. I am seriously considering looking for a new or used large format (accommodates 11 x 17 inch adventure paper) printer so that I can print larger topos and charts (the current printer is limited to 8 x 14.) I'm thinking Epson so that I don't have to start over with this ink research, and maybe I can use the same ink in the two printers. Comments about different printers needing different ink (and the recommendations as to printers) are very welcome.

I have previously used the adventure paper with a HP DJ 960 and then a DJ 995c. The 960 died from "ink poisoning" and the 995 stepped in, but neither had a crisp output with the adventure paper. I have an HP DJ 1220c sitting on the shelf, but my gut instinct is that the R380 could give better results, and if I want to print larger format, I should look at newer Epsons (probably a used or re-manufactured unit.)

Adventure paper, sold under the National Geographic name, is a waterproof teslin printing material that is very tear and puncture resistant, but can be printed on in an inkjet printer. Once dry (about 10 minutes) the ink won't wash off. Or at least it usually doesn't. Here's problem number one. When I switched from HP cartridges to re-manufactured cartridges, the red ink would run even if it were sitting for days. Yes, only the red, not the black or the blue. I switched to another re-manufacturer, actually another brand, and the problem stopped. The other problem, and part of why I switched from the HP inks was that the colors came out a little funny, just enough to be annoying, but not wreck the usefulness of the topo.

The color issue was only on the adventure paper, and the same image on regular paper looked ok.

Having switched to an Epson R380 to print CDs and pictures, I was a bit disappointed in the photo color (I have a black dog and photos of her looked off-color, more blue and grey than black.) The photos also had lines from (I presume) the print head, so I chalked that one up to "you get what you pay for" and buying a remanufactured printer. Good news was that printing on the CDs and DVDs was just fine and that was the most important job at the time. I haven't printed a topo yet, but I'm not in a hurry to print as I am near the end of the last set of OEM cartridges and loathe to spend another 50-60 dollars on a new set before I get aftermarket ink (and cartridges?) ordered and in hand.

So, I started looking for an aftermarket source of replacement cartridges. I started realizing that things have come a long way since the last time I looked at ink several years ago.

I started doing some research and felt bombarded with options without any way to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Ebay seems to have hundreds of sellers and no way to sort out the good from the bad. The rest of the internet is only marginally better, with sites like this being where the answers hide.

There seems to be at least one way to attack this, which is to start testing various inks on the paper, but I'm hoping for advice and recommendations to cut down on the number of inks to test. Also, I'd rather have a ink that is good at all three uses, rather than perfect for the adventure paper and mediocre for the CDs and pictures.

I like the idea of a CIS since it seems like I go through a set of cartridges within about 10-15 full 8x10 pictures and I'll print out 5-10 topos at a time (to give to members of the group) and I'd rather not replace cartridges every 2-3 weeks in the winter. The flip side is that having that capability isn't critical and I don't know what down sides there are to using a CIS.

I'm not afraid to refill cartridges. I was doing that on HP and cannon printers for years, with varying results.

In the end, I just don't want to waste time and energy (and money) if people have advice and experience that will prevent my missteps.

Thanks for taking the time to advise me, and you can either post here, or email me direct at ghopper@eskimo.com Also, if there is a more appropriate forum to post this on, please let me know.

I'll be more than glad to post my results so that others can learn from me!

Grant

 

[panos]

I believe you should use pigmented inks for such an application as they are more resistant to water. There are many pigmented CIS kits for the Epson R380. I'm not sure about the compatibility of adventure paper with pigmented inks though.

Quality in photos is not as impressive as in dye-based Canons but it ~will~ be the all rounder you need.

 

[ghopper]

Thanks for sharing with me! After I read your reply, I did a little reading on Claria ink and switching from dye based to pigment based inks. This post was very illuminating, though there were other helpful ones too. http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3018&p=1 particularly websnail and mikling's posts. It sounds like switching over is a bit of work to get it clean and avoid clogs, but it can be done.

I suspect this is going to turn into a real research project.

 

[mikling]

I've been switching back and forth between pigment and dye on a defeatured R380, the R260 for months and there is no clogging problem. Every time I switch the printer thinks it gets new cartridges and does a good prime which flushes out the prior ink. Furthermore I have laid the R260 to rest for over a month with no use in dry winter air and it fired right back up with no clogging as well. I was not expecting that. The newer Epson printers are very much less likely to clog as compared to the older models. Things HAVE progressed.

I'd think that pigment ink is the way to go for your application.

I am no longer of the opinion that pigment ink is a negative compared to dye ink in output. When a proper set of pigment inks is used and properly profiled, the results can be superior to dye prints, depending on what you seek. If you are seeking a high contrast very punchy photo, then dye has an advantage. However, if you want a slightly softer look with smoother shadow details, I am finding that the pigment wins hands down. For me using dye ink gives me an impression of Kodacolor 400 back in the film days. Using pigment I get output closer to something like the more accurate films. In fact for portrait work, the pigment is a clear winner. Now this is using the lowly Epson R260. With the better printers like the 1800,1900,2400 and 2880 ouput is superb.

The "dark" days of pigment is quickly going past us and there must be a reason why every serious printer mfr is now offering pigment printers in the upper end of their product lines. If the output was inferior that direction would not be taken.

The biggest issue with using pigment on the CLARIA based printers is that if no profiling is used, you need to carefully tweak the color controls to output proper balanced colors.

The real printer you might be looking for is the R1400 or something I just picked up a used Epson Stylus 3000 that can print 17" wide x 44". I got that at a price I could not refuse. Despite being 8 years old and 3.5pl droplets the only downside is its slowness but I don't print that big often. I'd imagine that would make some nice size maps.

 

[ghopper]

Ok, I'm starting to see how to weight what I've been reading elsewhere. I now realize that some of these "issues" were with older ink (formulations?) or older comments/posts and that times have changed.

So the question then becomes 1) where do I go to get ink, 2) how do I avoid buying garbage (such as low/no QC stuff made in china - not that everything from china is garbage...), and perhaps 3) Should I bite the bullet and get a CIS now?

Maybe put another way, are there specific brands and models (?) of ink to select beyond it being pigment type? Any sellers to stay away from, or that i should go to?

I'm inclined to go with cartridges to start, that way I can test different inks if I don't end up with a winning combo the first time out. However, I'm willing to consider that on Ebay, I can find CIS systems with ink for $50-60.

Is ebay a place to buy (ink and/or CIS systems), or are there web sellers with competitive prices that represent a more sensible option?

What ARE peoples experiences with ebay sellers and products?

I have more questions, but I'll wait until I read and digest the next answers before I go further.

Thanks again, particularly to mikling!!!

GH

 

[Xalky]

Try this place for CIS and pigment inks. http://kyson.yangportal.com/I've purchased a couple of CIS systems for my canons from them and they sell the pigment based ink for these systems. I've never personally tried the pigment inks in my canons for fear of ruining the print head. If you do a google search for "Kyson Ink" or "Kyson CIS" you should get a few hits on some photography forums that give these pretty good reviews. Here's the link for your printer http://kyson.yangportal.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2 On sale for $80 plus $25 if you want it filled with K4 ultrachrome pigment inks.

 

[ghopper]

Thanks Xalky, I'll check them out.

mikling, which brand of inks have you successful used in your R260? I'll start looking for a good deal on a 1400 (or maybe and 1800/1900!) but I want to walk before I run.

I'm guessing based on the fact that no one has mentioned ebay, that It's not a place to find a good deal on this sort of thing? (at least for the uninitiated?)

So, next question. Do I flush and refill my existing cartridges, buy non-OEM already filled cartridges (and refill those later) or empty, virgin ones and fill them? After looking at the Kyson site, at $120 with shipping, (if that's typical) I can see the advantage. Ebay had some in the 50-60 range, but I believe that you generally get what you pay for.

I will say that I am bothered by Kyson's warning that the warranty is void if you use someone else's ink, and they wouldn't guarantee performance of the system. I say that after looking at several other sites that had similar products and prices (in most cases, more like $150-190, though a few that were in the 80-100 range) and advertised that you could use what ever ink you wanted in their system(s). I'd rather be able to pick and choose the best CIS for me and the best ink (cost versus quality) and have them work together, but not be forced by a manufacturer to buy thei whole system "just cuz." Seems too much like amway....

Maybe this isn't a valid way to look at it, but my thinking is that a CIS shouldn't care what flows through its veins and that only the printhead will really affect the performance (clogging, etc.)

I'm going to do a bit more reading before I jump, but I feel like I'm making good progress toward an answer!

Thanks again to all!
GH