My Canon PRO-10 on refill ink - and what happened to my PRO-9500II

[Ink stained Fingers]

you may read as well @mikling 's explanations about the red ink of the signature ink set offering which is very similar to the approach by octoink in this respect

http://precisioncolors.com/C10B.html

 

[palombian]

you may read as well @mikling 's explanations about the red ink of the signature ink set offering which is very similar to the approach by octoink in this respect

http://precisioncolors.com/C10B.html

After a first refill the Red cart still contains 5-10% OEM, that most probably enhanced my first tests.
Rinsing causes more problems in my experience.
Same for other colours, but it would be more visible if the difference was big - as was with the PBK.

I am arranging further ink samples ...

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

@palombian - I think it would be simpler to report the L* luminance values of the black patches directly - without
the log-recalculation into Dmax values, the readout of the XRite spectros are L*ab values, the 3D gamut plot uses the
linear L*ab axes, Dmax has been used more for analogue films etc. It's easier to see the differences with the Lab values, a difference of Dmax values of just 0.3 makes a difference of luminance values of a ratio of 2 - which is already one f-stop difference and directly visible in printouts e.g. an L value of 8 vs. 4.
I can overall confirm your findings that there are pretty wide variances of the black levels between different inks - and papers as I tested it with inks for Epson printers in my case, and I got a rather similar range of values

 

[palombian]

@palombian - I think it would be simpler to report the L* luminance values of the black patches directly - without
the log-recalculation into Dmax values, the readout of the XRite spectros are L*ab values, the 3D gamut plot uses the
linear L*ab axes, Dmax has been used more for analogue films etc. It's easier to see the differences with the Lab values, a difference of Dmax values of just 0.3 makes a difference of luminance values of a ratio of 2 - which is already one f-stop difference and directly visible in printouts e.g. an L value of 8 vs. 4.
I can overall confirm your findings that there are pretty wide variances of the black levels between different inks - and papers as I tested it with inks for Epson printers in my case, and I got rather similar range of values

Thanks for the input, I added the measures Lab values.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I added the measures Lab values.

You added even more details with the addition of the ab color values - the actual color tone of the black point; there is a difference between the Canon OEM photo black ink - with some small negative b-values vs. the Octoink inks. I think these differences are just on the edge of visibility in good light and by direct patch by patch comparison.

 

[palombian]

I am printing my first A3 and A3+ and am very satisfied with the results.

As said, I use the Octoinkjet inkset plus Precision Colors CO and Canon OEM PBK.
I will have to buy OEM PBK soon.
But since in the Precision Colors Signature Edition there is no mention to use OEM PBK (only Red), it could be more advantageous to order at PC even with the additional handling and duty costs (by MyUS or similar).

Does someone can confirm the PC72SE-PK photoblack is similar to OEM ?

 

[mikling]

I am going to disclose that there are some labs that load the inks to the point that serious issues occur long term.
Again, if you go back in history there is one color that is mentioned during 2017 where nearly for a year, I was performing some severe testing. The loading is that they start with pigments of lower density in color and put so much in to try and meet the dense color required that it gets close. Until you start printing long term and then start encountering some banding that does not show up in nozzle checks. From a lab reading, the ink gets close to the OEM color but jetting becomes erratic over time. Further use will cause a buildup of pigment on the nozzles and will possibly likely lead to a fatal printhead.
Flushing and soaking will not necessarily fix the banding.
If caught early, then using another ink with proper qualities will actually "flush" or pressure wash the nozzles out. But using the same ink will be fatal. It appears that ink with the proper consistency and not exceeding a percentage of solids is required to maintain the printhead in good condition. Exceeding the solids percentage will cause deposits. Again if caught early, proper ink like OEM or another can fix the issue.

Like I said, I dedicated a large part of 2017 to learn and properly design my Signature Inksets. I have been looking at the claims of some other aftermarket offerings on the internet and I cannot believe the claims made because I am pretty sure, I also tested those same inks and most failed. Like perfect ICC match to OEM, what a joke. Fake information galore.

I nearly released both a Magenta and Red that exhibited this behavior and I won't disclose the lab. The other thing was the reliability of jetting among different batches left a lot to be desired. This essentially renders any profiling kind of useless unless you're continually profiling for each batch of ink.

Again OEM consistency is very hard to achieve and most refill operations just peddle ink as I have found out. They don't get into the nitty gritty. The labs don't test in the real world and the sellers also don't perform long term testing either.

So just saying the truth of the matter as I have discovered over a decade of serious experience. The refill ink business is not what many people think it is.

People have asked if I will stick to the OEM red and I still say yes. Life is too short, if another red causes issues and I peddle it, I won't sleep. I need my sleep.

Refilling is for the frugal, but don't be too frugal.......it can hurt you sometimes.

 

[palombian]

The gamut of the Octoinkjet Red is indeed amazingly strong.
The profiles published on this site confirm my measurements (certainly not correct but not totally wrong either).
OTH the PC SE profiles have a visible weak point in the Red as mentioned clearly.
But if there is a danger of oversaturating the pigments, how come that the PC SE profiles show a larger gamut - in particular in the blue/green area - than the OEM's ?
Why take the risk of clogging if the density exceeds already OEM ?
Or is this is less critical for blue/green pigments ?

(I am not at home now but will attach the profiles later)

PS: personally I don't care about perfect match to OEM (but I can understand it is difficult to sell ink otherwise).
Even with OEM ink and paper the profile I make with my ordinary Colormunki is better than the one published.
I am satisfied with reliable inks giving 90% of the OEM gamut for 20% of the price.

Edit:

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Canon - or Epson - don't tell you which instrumentation they use to create the profiles, and please consider that they are averaging various variables - variations of inks, paper, printer hardware and aging, so they don't give you the most accurate profile just for the material you are using at this time.

 

[Artur5]

We should take into account that the ColorMunki is an old device. The new I1Studio is the same hardware with a different case. It costs a small fraction of the price of modern professional spectrofotometers. The accuracy of the profiles that we can make with this instrument surely isn’t up to the stuff used by the laboratories of Canon/Epson. For one thing, the sensor of the ColorMunki can’t measure correctly certain wavelengths emitted by modern LED back lighted monitors or UV reflected by papers strongly coated with OBAs ( i.e. most glossy papers, specially the cheap ones ). Hence, I doubt that the measures taken with the Color Munki on glossy papers have enough accuracy for serious comparisons of color gamuts. It will depend of course on the amount of OBA present, but even a good quality luster paper like Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl has a coat of OBAs.
Sure, the CM it’s very useful for making profiles at an affordable cost. I’m using it too and no complaints but it’s no match for the reference devices that Canon/Epson/HP use.