Manage by printer versus LR handle color management

[3dogs]

@3dogs you have your opinions and you have air them cordially, but as you say the OP is just trying to print and wants options not opinions and that’s what I taught I was giving him, options !

What’s so wrong with the OP trying both methods himself just to see what the differences are, is experimenting some sort of crime because they have the luxury of a Pro printer, is it not aloud !

I reckon some Photographers build themselves a hide and forget that they can actually come outside without scaring the hell out of everybody to show off their prints..

@TheHat

Obviously I did not express key points well enough.

I try to do better, non OEM Ink will not be good fit with Epson presets for colour tones and density, OP asked for BETTER, so better is more learning, and as has been said trial and error. Non of us learned much of anything either reading or being shown, till we experimented ourselves, and found our own 'true'

You have made it clear that you don't do profiles and have no need for them. I take my hat off to you, that is by far the HARDEST path, may be you have not noticed how much experience it takes because you have got there over time.

Methinks Harry is not so confident with some things, non of us were on the start of this adventure. All I am saying is if you choose to be a photographer its HARD work and lots of it.
If you want to be a Happy Snapper thats easier, quicker and less costly, by far.

I take Harrys question to be which path for colour management is better, Lightroom or Epson printer........Epson printer is designed to give average results with Epson supplies and in printer profile. It has LOTS of built in variability allowance in it.

Harry took a first step outside that and refilled
He took a second step, and bought Lightroom, an awesome tool, he has a 3800, an awesome tool, all I am saying to him as is Smile (I believe) stay with us, do the hard yards, we will help.

If you think that I was having a dig at you, I apologise, rather I recognised that you follow a harder path than me, but I did think that you had missed that this appears to be about colour management rather than editing.
"Are all photos that bad that they always need some editing, I reckon not.."

Sandra gets GREAT Happy Snaps from her P&S camera, Canon printer and paper (oh! and ink) but that is all they will ever be because the colours are only as true as average.......
I guess another way to put it is you would not dream of using a half clean cart to refill for an important job or client, I believe by profile is the only way to get anywhere near a UNIVERSAL standard for colour.
Finally on closing I was calling on our friend Harry to take the plunge, swim the hard yards with us, cos we can and will help........and that is the all of it, nothing else.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[The Hat]

@3dogs you are perfectly right, I am not arguing that with you, your way is probably the best way but I just wanted the OP to see for himself the differences that profiling can make, because I too am a happy snapper and use the print driver facilities to get the prints to my satisfaction. (Sort of Profiling too)

I do hope your Sandra doesn’t read your replies because if she ever did, you are dead mate dead, calling her great work average, gees you like living on the edge.

There are two ways to travel the true path; both will get you there in the end but not necessarily with the same results..

 

[3dogs]

@3dogs you are perfectly right, I am not arguing that with you, your way is probably the best way but I just wanted the OP to see for himself the differences that profiling can make, because I too am a happy snapper and use the print driver facilities to get the prints to my satisfaction. (Sort of Profiling too)

I do hope your Sandra doesn’t read your replies because if she ever did, you are dead mate dead, calling her great work average, gees you like living on the edge.

There are two ways to travel the true path; both will get you there in the end but not necessarily with the same results..

You are so far from Happy Snapper it cant be measured, you are being modest again

 

[Smile]

Working the hard way as a norm in 2008 perhaps, now in 2014 one should better invest the time in taking photos not color management practices used in the "dark ages", come one we have one life to live, why waste it? Some one else did making those color math formullas allready so we don't have to.

 

[3dogs]

Working the hard way as a norm in 2008 perhaps, now in 2014 one should better invest the time in taking photos not color management practices used in the "dark ages", come one we have one life to live, why waste it? Some one else did making those color math formullas allready so we don't have to.

Given your vocation the response is understandable. Sadly we are developing into a world that "just wants, and wants it now" thus there is opportunity for folks with the skills to create and manage colour for others as you do and that is good for you, and good for the professionals that already have an appreciation of colour in all its aspects.
We are not talking to those people here so much, and this thread is about two options, LR or Printer for printing

Its a cosy, but misleading to say all a person has to do is go online and purchase a profile.

I would be classified as an advanced enthusiast photographer, at last count I had 86 different profiles. Each time I get a new batch of paper, and with Canson (which I mainly use) I create a new profile for each fresh batch, most boxes have 15 sheets!!
Also creating my own profile gives me a "feel" for how the paper reacts to the ink and what adjustments I need to make to the ink feed rate ink density etc.

I do that not because I am a perfectionist, a nerd or even obsessed. I do it because I can, and I know how, and I do it because each new thing I learn there is quickly translated into capturing images that I value because they are starting to capture the 'atmosphere' I am photographing.

A person can easily purchase a good camera and a hand full of cards, go out and use up a week just shooting frame after frame, and return with 8,000 crap images having learned NOTHING
The same person can spend that week getting the fundamentals of colour then go out and shoot three of the best images he/she has made, because he/she learned something about colour. If they keep doing that for enough weeks they will get an image that others will WANT to see.

If that person knows how to use the tools they have - Camera, Printer, Ink and paper AND is able to achieve good colour on their screen and from their printer AND paper they are on the way to being as good as they can be.

The person that takes the easy option all the way through the process from capture to print, may just as well drop their pants, sit on a photocopier and use up reams of paper making images of their butt because that output is going to have MORE chance of having value than any image they will make with a camera, AND they will save HEAPS of money.

Camera Clubs abound with people such as described above, each carelessly crafted image is a NATURAL moment in time - frozen, an empty husk, bland,and utterly meaningless. These people pound their chests as followers of the great in-camera Master Photographers of the past, blissfully ignorant of the fact that these same Masters were masters of colour, and colour chemistry, having spent THOUSANDS of hours learning their craft.

Sorry! more time making photographs and less time learning makes an adept HAPPY SNAPPER at best.

 

[Smile]

You got me wrong, I never said that learning in not required.
More easy way to the goal is not always a bad thing.

Bad thing is when color management is thought about like some luxury that is not required or can be skipped. When one can't edit their photos because spending thousands of $$$ for i1Pro for monitor calibration is not justified - that is a problem. When Photographer uses calibrated monitors, camera and wastes tens of hours on few shots later to be viewed by their clients on stupid phone, or TV - that is the problem. Stupidity - is a problem, but not everyone can be a photographer or somebody else they imagine they can be. That is afact of life.

That does not mean everyone has to start from the wheel, to go forward.

I can't imagine how somebody can have so much free time and money even with third party ink to waste all this making printers print like they should. ICC profiles pay for themselves if a customer uses OEM ink. That is because it's very overpriced and even 20% savings pay for the money you spent on profiles by far.

So I'm sure those that wan't know about color really make better photos, like you said

 

[ruben_c]

I want to try to explain it in short terms and resume for Harry:

Managed by printer: The printer uses it's own interpretation of colours. Normally this will result into bad quality. Even if the quality is good, the colors won't correspond with what you see on your screen. (Requirement is that your display is calibrated with a colorimeter like Spyder4 or so.)

Managed by Elements/Photoshop: Only setting that will not do the rest. When choosing this option, it is fundamental to choose the right profile underneath. As already the rest stated in this thread, you have multiple options:

1. Working with OEM inks and papers and use the build-in ICC Profiles from the Printer Driver
2. Working with OEM inks and other paper manufacturers and download the profiles from their website
3. Working with OEM inks and creating dedicated ICC profiles for each paper with a spectrophotometer (The one we use at work is the SpyderPrint)

Working with alternative inks is no option as they're not consistent enough (You would have to create a new profile each time you print or at least each time you have refill/change cartridges.

Hope this could clarify a little bit.

 

[The Hat]

@ruben_c you have misinterpret this whole thread, it’s most lightly that nobody on this forum actually uses OEM inks to print with, we’re all happy to use 3rd inks, and Profiles where deemed necessary.

The printers that I use manage colour perfectly well for me and I don’t see a need to use the profile option, and my printers don’t print out bad quality either, ICC profiles are a personal choice but they are not a necessity for achieving good quality output.

 

[Smile]

The correct color from a printer is a 2 part process:

1part, linearization curves (7 different things) for ink hidden under paper names in printer driver
2part, ICC profiles installed with printer driver or tailor made

Printer manages color - is for applications that does not have a way to select ICC profiles, like MS WORD, EXCEL etc. When selected the printer loads 1part by paper selection and 2part by paper selection automatically. Some printer drivers working in this mode allows user to select profiles from printerdriver window.

Managed by Photoshop ect. printer loads part1 by paper selection and then you select the ICC Profile yourself you want to use.

No color management - is when ICC test charts are printed only, (normally outputs more saturated colors) sets the printer in some sort "standard mode" that may not be any good for paper the profile is being made for as it's no secred no manufacturer want us to use third party paper.
In other words part1 is still somewhat loaded, so that why there are RIP software that allows to print without installing printer drivers. RIP allows to adjust every parameter before printing ICC profile test charts.