Dye vs pigment for photo books and other questions

[Andraz]

Hi all!

So, this is my second topic since finding this fantastic forum a few days ago. I have a failed print head in my Canon Pro 9500 Mk I which I will hopefully be able to fix with The Hat's generous help

In the meantime, I have been reading quite a lot on this forum and learning a lot. I am aware of the basic differences between dye and pigment inks, but most discussions focus on fading when exposed to air and light. One of my ideas when getting the printer was to try and make a flush mounted photo book (like the one I have from my wedding with two pages printed on one sheet which is then scored and folded). In terms of this, these are my questions:

1. How good is fade resistance of dye inks when stored in albums and photobooks?
2. Can anything be done to improve scratch resistance of pigment inks (would something like Hahnemuhle varnish spray be a good solution?)
3. What is better for scoring and folding? Pigment or dye? (I know a lot depends on the paper)
4. OEM dyes are obviously too expensive and third party dyes are apparently no good for permanence (Martin from Octoink actually advised me against using them if I want some fade resistance). What are my options if I decide to ditch pigment and don't want to use third party dye inks? From what I was able to gather from this forum, I could get an Epson L1800 or use Fuji/Epson drylab inks in an Epson printer (at least according to the test here: http://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/my-new-epson-stylus-photo-1500w-artisan-1430.8482/page-12). Is there any other option?
5. Does anyone have any other advice for making photobooks?
6 And finally an unrelated question. My wife sometimes orders posters from the local print shop but she is now asking why couldn't I print them. But I am not sure it would actually be cheaper. I can get semigloss poster paper for 0,45 Euro per sheet. What would be the approximate ink cost for an A3 print for Canon 9500 Mk1? I am using Image Specialists inks from Octoink.

As I said I am very new to this whole printing thing and would really appreciate some help

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Please let me comment on some of your questions, since I'm not familiar with the specifics of photobooks.

1. I can report that prints even with pretty cheap refill dye ink does not show any visible fading when kept
in the dark, I have some of such prints from years ago - up to 8 - 10 years

There are apparentyl several effects with photo book prints - one is friction between the pages impacting
the paper surface, and even color transfer when printed surfaces are pressed against each other for a long
time, but I don't how how prominent and critical these effects are.

3. I would think it's mostly a matter of the paper, the stability of the coating, and not the ink. The ink layer is
very thin compared to paints etc

4. Whether OEM inks are too expensive is your opinion. I'm not aware that there are Canon compatible inks
available comparable to the well performing Fujifilm inks (for Epson printers). The new Canon printers with ink tanks may make such OEM inks available in bottles, then likely more affordable than ink in cartridges. It could be as well that ink drained from bigger Canon Prograph printer cartridges are suitable for refill.

5. You may assume for your calculations a gross ink consumption of 1ml per A4, as a photo print, and together with the papers you are planning to use you should be able to calculate the total print cost.

And don't forget to consider the creation and use of icm color profiles especially when you are using non-OEM inks on non-OEM papers.

 

[Andraz]

Thanks, Ink stained Fingers!

You are right about the price of OEM inks, what I meant was they are too expensive for me

I am not really set on Canon and although I would like to restore my 9500, I could easily buy an additional Epson printer for dye inks.

I see you have the L800 which is a smaller version of L1800 if I am correct. What do you think it's better buy, 1500W or L1800? And what would be the best dye ink, Fujifilm, L1800 EOM ink or something altogether different? I don't print much so the ITS system is no big deal for me.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

If you think you can get your Canon running again try that first before you look for an alternative. The Epson models P50/L800 as A4 and 1500W/L1800 as A3 printers are hardwarewise pretty similar except the paper format. Whether you like or need a model with ink tanks is mainly a matter of your preference like convenience and print volume. And I don't think there is a 'best' ink, it's as well a question of your requirements e.g. whether you want the lowest price or the best lightfastness, or buy at a local shop or....lot's of ink questions have been discussed in detail in other threads.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

for photo book papers you may look here

http://www.redrivercatalog.com/sbproject/best-inkjet-photo-paper-for-book-printing-binding.html

and http://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/inkjet-photo-albums/p/Product/show/34/138.html

or google for `photo book inkjet paper'

and some of those companies may be able to offer service and support you with your specific questions

 

[palombian]

I make from time to time a photobook myself, but you need to buy paper and ink at a very low price to compete with internet printshops.
Double-sided is also difficult to achieve.
You also need a binding system.

I print the books made with Lightroom on A4, the inner pages on glossy or luster (€0.10-0.12/page) with dye ink (€0.06/page), the cover with pigment ink on luster, and bind with an old ring binder machine I bought for €10.

Not 100% professional I agree, only for fun and to be independent.

PS: when I had the 9500 (model 1) I was so frustrated about the ink consumption that I noted the number of prints.
Never could do more than 25 A3's before refilling. That's about 3 ml/page at €150/l is €0.45/A4.

 

[martin0reg]

... and bind with an old ring binder machine I bought for €10. Not 100% professional I agree, only for fun and to be independent. ..

Same here, with a wire binding machine and a stack paper cutter, you are free to use all kind of sizes, papers, covers .... and wire binding is good enough for me, I wouldn't use plastik binders..

 

[Andraz]

Thanks everyone for the answers. This photobook is sort of a personal project for me, so I am not too bothered by costs at this point. I might be in the future...

 

[Andraz]

PS: when I had the 9500 (model 1) I was so frustrated about the ink consumption that I noted the number of prints.
Never could do more than 25 A3's before refilling. That's about 3 ml/page at €150/l is €0.45/A4.

How would different quality modes affect consumption? If I choose Standard instead of High for example?

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

different quality settings may impact the ink consumption - or not, you just may print faster with bigger droplets, or with higher resolution slower with smaller droplets. Only special targets with ink saturation ramps would show differences, or targets for the creation of icm-profiles when looking to the ink/density curves. I measured the ink consumption with an R265 and such profile target - printing all relevant colors, and that one is using less than 1ml - 0.8ml per page A4 . Typical photos use less. Data was collected with a high precision scale measuring the weight delta of a CISS ink reservoir over 25 pages. And my Pro 7600 directly can show the ink consumption as part of a nozzle check which I can do before and after a print. And it's about 1.1 ml for typical photos. That's the ink landing on the paper, be aware that there is more ink consumed - wasted ....with every cleaning cycle, and a cleaning cycle which is triggered after every cartridge change. And that's a lot - when using 6 colors in your printer and your change/refill one the purge pump sucks as well some of all the other colors , and this again and again for every other color. And all this is a lot, and it's directly and easy to see that a printer with bigger cartridges would dump less waste ink for every change cycle since that frequency is lower - you are printing more before you change a cartridge.