Do you feel comfortable selling prints using non oem ink like Precision Colors?

[Ink stained Fingers]

mikling is making quite some interesting comments in his posting #6 which go far beyond the original question of this thread - addressing the nonsense of printer tests - pricing - customer relations and more - I think that's items for a separate thread. Most of us are customers of various ink suppliers, and we can ask ourselves if we get the inks, the quality, performance we expect and pay for, or are we facing claims like 'on par' with Claria or Canon OEM and what is the assurance that we can believe them - or not . I'm still waiting for an ink company claiming their inks to be better than OEM inks - not even Chinese suppliers have reached that point of perfection so far.

 

[Roy Sletcher]

- not even Chinese suppliers have reached that point of perfection so far.

...or possibly the point of exaggeration.

To the best of my knowledge all claims are based in accelerated lab testing. Unless of course printer companies now have 120 year old technicians doing the testing and submitting verified samples.

Not to decry their methods. Probably the best we have, but it is significant they do not publish the probability that their forecasts are accurate or can be relied upon.

Yogi Berra is reputed to have said "Predictions are difficult. Particularly about the future."

We only have to look at our respective government agencies with all their high priced help lurching from one failed prediction to another.

I agree with inks stained fingers. We should be discussing the subject he mentioned. They are fundamental to the refilling philosophy.


r

 

[The Hat]

@mikling and @Ink stained Fingers together make a very valid point, regarding ink longevity.

I use the popular I.S. ink brand, WHY, because it prints and looks great, it doesn’t harm my printers, its very reasonably priced and they never claimed it will outlast all the other inks, if I didn’t like it I would use something else, no one forces me to use it.

Unlike Canon, their claims of longevity are totally outrageous and can't be proven because none of us are going to be around to find out anyway, I reckon they are made solely to justify the high price they can charge us for their over priced excellent inks.

ALL dye inks fade no matter who the manufacturer is, and anyone that says different is misguided, put high priced OEM ink on the wrong paper and longevity is just a word that fades with the ink, if you want relative permanency then switch to pigment ink.

I'm still waiting for an ink company claiming their inks to be better than OEM inks

Well Inkproducts.com can make this very claim.

Quote:- Our New Archival ink is a revolutionary new dye-based ink formulation that delivers unsurpassed image quality and long-lasting results. It provides vivid, true-to-life colors and is ozone fade resistance. The photos printed with our new archival ink will last as long as the OEM brand ink and will stand up to fading and smudges. This ink is not for use ink Canon Maxify printers they use all pigment ink.
Their claim is:- as long as, so no cigar..

 

[turbguy]

Of course nobody, for the most part, worried about colour print longevity. Probably because it was so bad. Makes our current die based inks look really good by comparison.

rs

And yet, MANY photographic prints were sold in the days of analog photography. The purchasers were aware they were buying something that had a "life".

 

[martin0reg]

Regarding the original question I think it intentionally implies a moralistic judgement... like "how could you sell me these foul eggs?"
I am not interested to discuss this, because I would not sell or buy prints from unknown "amateur photographers" - I would take them or give them as gifts. And I think any commercial photo finisher should have at least a minilab or drylab machine.

But I'm very interested to discuss the other questions:
- what are the most stable inks today? -is dye (OEM or 3rd party) still so far beyond pigment? - which 3rd party ink comes closest to OEM regarding fading? - what about the cost? etc...
Because fading really is a subject to me... not the feelings of an amateur as a seller...

 

[mikling]

Fading is a lot more complicated than just printing stuff and hanging it out to see what happens. Yes, it is a valid test for that situation but a totally invalid test for others. Why?

If you take the time to read Canon's statements. You will come to see that fading can occur because of many environmental factors.
The main factors are UV attack and Ozone attack. In general if you make an ink resistant to ozone it will be more open to attack from UV. Why? the reason exists at the electron level of dyes. Very complicated. So you have a see saw arrangement. From the Canon statements you can tell that Chromalife appears open to ozone and is possibly improved over the older Chromalife which was a disaster for ozone despite being OEM. So if you perform a fade test that is respectable and valid, you better have a gas tight environmentally controlled chamber that can seal off all other gases and have a specification on the gas within the chamber. What amateur has that capability?

I have stated this two years ago and many memories "fade". If you want to use dye and experience in your environment shows that it holds up. Great. However, the same results will not necessarily hold in even your neighbor's house. That electronic air cleaner installed. Guess what gives it a fresh smell.

Now go back to the fade claims made by third party inks and see if they will give you a rundown of the physics of what is going on. If you have a conscience you won't make claims. Sometimes it is better to be ignorant than know and tell the truth. It applies in this case about fade because in general all forums don't understand nor know. But you know now.

I can make a brand that say third party ink 200+. People will think it is for 200 years of no fade. Seriously.

BTW that Canon article has tabs. Make sure you go through all of it...for the aspects. There is no guarantee because they know.

With dye inks, there are so many variables. The only respectable dye ink so far that is remotely considered for professional use possibly is the real Epson Claria. Again, dye inks will get somewhat better over time but it will be a long time when they will even approach the longevity of pigment maybe never since pigment is also a moving target as well. The construction of a dye molecule and what makes it a dye is the reason it is open for attack by the elements.

 

[askfelix]

Thank you so much for all your comments. Since I have 2 Pixma Pro-100 printers, I will probably use one with PC ink for brochures, advertisements or other mass printings and the second Pro-100 with OEM ink for limited serious work where longevity is needed (until I get can a pigment base printer). If opportunity arises where I can get a Pro-10 at a good price, I will get one at a heartbeat and probably stock it up with PC ink as well. Just out of curiosity, how well does the longevity of the prints from a Pro-100 compare to a regular print from a lab print like Costco or Walmart. If they are close to the lab prints, I will not worry at all.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

fotochemical processes today yield longevity better than dye inks, but there as well not all are alike. Look to the back side, you may get a print on Kodak paper, running through a Kodak process, or Fuji, or you don't recognize anything - you don't know. And to complicate the matter -Fuji is offering photo finishing stations running a dye sublimation process, or Fujifilm and Epson are offering inkjet based printing stations - Drylab or Surelab - which may be used for those 1 hour printing terminals and services , and these stations use dye inks - some equipment like this
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/photofinishing/dry_minilabs/dl450/ just as an example, and there are more models available. And funny enough - users of such equipment are looking as well for cheaper refill alternate inks - you may get dye inks from China with unkown performance, or you even can get substitute pigment inks by a U.S. company, and just to complicate it further - there are as well laser based photo finishing stations in operation. You just don't know what you get , so Walmart cannot be a reference at all.
The more we discuss this issue the more you may get confused, and to add another variable to the fading game - some older furniture made with chip wood boards contained quite some formaldehyde in the glue which was a contributor to the fading of foto prints which people kept in the dark - that's fine - but the formaldehyde did its work in the cabinets.
I would recommend you to do some test prints , place them at a few different locations inside and outside where you are living, watch them for a while , e.g. in parallet with some Walmart prints , get a feeling for the fading effect, and draw your conclusions.
The general consensus from all the inputs given here - OEM dye inks perform better than any 3rd party inks in regards of longevity, and pigment inks do much better than dye inks, but here you have the benefit that pigment 3rd party inks can compete with OEM pigment inks. So in terms of cost - and longevity performance - it may be cheaper to use refill pigment inks instead of genuine OEM dye inks.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I think I'm coming closer to the perfect ink - for Epson photo printers - not for Canon yet.....

http://www.buypackagings.com/Desktop-Anti-UV-Dye-Ink-10082412/

EV6 - Anti UV - keeps vidid color permanently - best choice for outside painting -

what can you expect more - the perfect ink for the Epson R/RX series photo printers, it's probably that good that it even kills the UV in your living room.......