Color proofing for large-scale digital printing on fabric

[Ingue]

Me and my partner are intending to have satin printed for a fashion project.

The printing company that prints the satin is abroad, and can not supply us with a color profile.

So we need to supply them with a file that is color proofed, and a sample proof print so they have a reference for the color.


Right now I invested in a NEC Multisync PA241W monitor with calibrator, to make sure that what I am seeing on the screen is properly calibrated.

The next step seems to be getting a good printer that is suitable for color proofing, but right now we cannot spend more than 500 USD on this.. so the Epson printers marketed towards color proofing are not an option (the ones that go for about 10000 USD approx.)

Could anyone here please advise me on what printer to get? This process seems overwhelming at first, I am willing to invest in getting a dependable and reliable color proofing workflow going, but I definately need some pointers.

- I was leaning towards the Epson R1900, but I am also not sure if I should do my color proofs on glossy photo paper, or matte with satin finish.

- This printer's only purpose will be to print color proofs, nothing more.

Thanks for any help, if my post is too confusing I will do my best to explain further!

 

[Grandad35]

The short answer is that no printer can do what you want because the color management falls apart when your fabric printer can't give you a profile for their printer. Is it because they can't profile their process or because they won't?

You have taken the first step in color management - calibrating your monitor.

What software are you using? Can it show whether your designs have any "out of gamut" colors on your monitor? If you do, your calibrated monitor can't properly display all of the colors in your image.

Does your software support "soft proofing"? If it does, convert your image to the sRGB color space and find a local photo shop that publishes their printer profiles. Read this link on how to use the profiles to soft proof your image with the selected printer profile. You can then have your image printed on that "printer" (often a traditional chemical print), after specifying the exact printer and paper and instructing them to turn off all automatic corrections. This print should be a reasonable representation of your image
and you don't have to buy a printer to do it.

The real question is what is the satin printer going to do with the printed "reasonable representation" of your image. Are they going to print your image on satin and adjust the color settings on their printer driver until they get it right? Good luck on that, since these adjustments can only make simple linear "gain" adjustments for 3 colors across the full color spectrum, not the type of "non-linear in three colors" corrections that are supported by profiles.

The second big question is "how will they compare the print and the printed image"? It is quite common for the color match to change when the lighting changes - e.g. sunlight vs. fluorescent vs. tungsten lighting - see this link. The colors may match in their factory, but fail to match under the lighting in a fashion show. This can happen even with a profile, which is generated using a standard "white light" illumination.

Good luck. Getting this right won't be easy.

 

[Ingue]

Dear Grandad35,

Thank you so much for your informative and helpful reply.

Your printshop advice is golden, I did not even know that some of these companies provided their ICC profiles.. that is brilliant and will save me a lot of costs for now.

I am using Adobe Photoshop CS5 for the image manipulation.

Perhaps it is a language barrier that is preventing them from providing me with an ICC profile. Their comment was that their printer was custom calibrated by the manufacterer, and that the fabric treatment process made any ICC profiles unhelpful because of the resulting changes.

Good advice, I feel slightly more enlightened on the whole process.

I found someone who is willing to help me to scan the CMYK colors that I will have Korea print on a test file, in order to give me a working ICC profile that might edge me closer to the margin. I am also going to inquire the company to see if they can at least provide me with the colorspace information of their printer.

I will keep this thread updated on what is happening..


- I have one more NEC SpectraView and Photoshop related question.

I calibrated my screen with the x-rite calibrator, specifically for Printing purposes.

In Photoshop, under Edit - Color Settings I am able to find that generated profile and enable it under Working Spaces - RGB.

But it is my understanding that printers use CMYK, so why does it seem as if there is no way to create ICC profiles geared towards CMYK? Is it because we are working on computer monitors that use the RGB colorspace, and the CMYK mode in Photoshop is just a 'simulation' of what they could look like?

What a newbee question, but I guess I am very new to all of this. Thanks for your help!

 

[Grandad35]

Ingue,

It is possible that they have a printer (and driver) that doesn't support ICC profiles. It's a good idea to ask them what color space your image file should use (hopefully one of the standards). In that case, you can use "Convert to Profile" to convert your image to that profile before sending it to them. Be sure that they know the color space that you use for your image. Also note that there are a number of standards for CMYK if they specify a CMYK color space (In CS5, use Edit>Convert to Profile and click on the down arrow on the right of Profile: to get a list of the profiles loaded on your computer).

I don't see how scanning the CMYK colors will help (is their scanner calibrated?), and I don't see how you can generate a profile with this information. Are you aware that there are large libraries of industry standard colors built into CS5 that probably already have he colors that you want? These instructions are copied from Adobe's help system:
1. Open the Adobe Color Picker, and click Color Libraries. The Custom Colors dialog box displays the color closest to the color currently selected in the Adobe Color Picker.
2. For Book, choose a color library.
3. Locate the color you want by entering the ink number or by dragging the triangles along the scroll bar.
4. Click the desired color patch in the list.

DO NOT use your monitor profile in the color settings. Use sRGB unless you really know what you are doing.

Printers may use C/M/Y/K inks, but the data that is input to the printers is RGB. The program inside the printer converts this RGB data to CMYK, but this is out of your control. A printer profile modifies the RGB data that is sent to the printer and does not get involved in CMYK.

Color management can become quite complicated, especially when you want to get into process printing and separating colors into C/M/Y/K (and various spot colors). Here are two links with some basic reading material:
http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/color_management.htm

Here is the book that many consider to be the bible on color management if you really want to learn about the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Co...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280801333&sr=8-1

 

[Ingue]

Thanks again. I ordered the book and hope to get it soon.

I learned that they are printing on Mutoh printers, probably the Viper series.
They use Epson headers on these fabric printers, together with a rip computer called Wasach Softrip.

They could not tell me anything about the colorspace, but this is probably a translation error and I will need to get back to them on that..

Funnily enough, they keep mentioning that if I deliver my file at 300dpi (as oposed to 150 dpi), my color results will be better. Does this hold truth? I understand to always deliver the file in the highest possible resolution, but when your source imagine does not go up to 300dpi without being stretched.. isn't it best to deliver it in 150?

Here is the information page about the Viper series, http://www.mutoh.be/direct-textile-printers/viper-tx/page.aspx/41

 

[Grandad35]

The Wasatch software supports ICC profiles and color management. The Mutoh printers also appear to do the same (they have a "Profiles/Drivers" tab, but I didn't want to give them an e-mail address just to look behind the curtain), so they have the hardware and software in place to support color management. The question is whether or not they actually take advantage of this capability. If they can't answer even basic questions about color space and profiles, if doesn't appear that they have implemented a color managed workflow and have reverted to the way that it used to be done - by guessing at the colors.

It is possible to see the difference in sharpness (not color) between 150 and 300 ppi on a high quality print if you look carefully, but I doubt that you can see the difference on fabric. However, I would follow their recommendations and up size the file to 300 using CS5 (Image > Image Size), as you don't want them working on your image. There is no harm in doing this (keep your original as a separate file). A bigger question is how much print sharpening you should apply - printed images usually look better when they are "over sharpened" compared to an image that will be viewed on a monitor. Ask them if they automatically sharpen your image to suit their printer or if they have recommended settings for the CS5 USM filter on a 300 ppi image.

 

[Ingue]

This is beyond words..


"Sorry to say that we can not let you know about the profile which is related with our technical skill. Will print for test if you send the file at 300dpi.

Thanks,

Best Regards,"

 

[Ingue]

We don't have much choice, since this company is the only one that we know of printing on our fabric thickness.

An alternative option that I can think of, is to have them print out a test with CMYK values and ranges on it, and get my hands on color-scanning hardware like the Colormunki and produce my own ICC profile from there..

Grandad, earlier you told me to stick to the default sRGB profile in Photoshop, and not my calibrated profile from the NEC. Why is this? Would I still have the benefit of my calibrated screen if Photoshop uses the sRGB profile? Or do they overlap.

Thank you for all of your help.

 

[Grandad35]

1. There is surely more than one company with a Mutoh printer that can print on your fabric. Why not contact the Mutoh US sales rep and ask who has their printers in the US and does contract work? If the first one doesn't understand color spaces or color management, move on to the next company.

2. You can't produce your own printer profile for their printer, regardless of what you do. They have to participate, and doing a fabric profile is a job for a pro. Once you read the book on color management, this will make more sense.

3. The highlighted setting (below) is the default color space used in Photoshop - see the "Description" at the bottom. It has nothing to do with your monitor profile.

Look at this link to see how you can check which profile CS5 is using for your monitor. The monitor profile and default color space are completely different things. Again, this will make more sense after you read the book several times.

You may later elect to switch to the aRGB or PhotoPro RGB color spaces, but don't even think about it until you understand color management and how your printer handles different color spaces.

 

[msmart]

Ingue, not knowing where you're located but seeing that you spell color without the "u" I have to assume you're in the States, I did a quick "printing on fabric" search and came up with this company:

http://www.first2print.com/

and another http://www.spoonflower.com/welcome (although they don't mention satin as a fabric type)

Good luck.