CISS printer choice

[photog-art-printer]

Ink stained Fingers,

There used to be a girl at my school called Fishy Fingers.



RE: “prepare image files for print - this could be some noise suppression - sharpness enhancement - color adjustments”



Yes, I’m familiar with the basics. In fact, I believe my copy of Photoshop may have been the first to be sold in America. $1500 cash …

I’ve used it so much, I’m bored with it. The only thing that keeps me using it is automating tasks.

Most of the 4mp files have been enlarged to about 30mp. A bit soft, but still published daily.

But …. I will visit the page about ‘printing low res images’.

My take on this problem is generally to make them bigger and see what happens … rather than letting the printer try and do it.



RE: “7000€ - each - with a print quality very poor - a pretty noisy image to start with - no good contrast balance across the print - a pretty pixelated print”



Well, yesterday I was inside. Bookstore and it seemed to me, one of the walls was covered with a terrible photo of a church outside the shop… that could have easily be taken properly. The image on the wall was probably shot on a 3mp camera …. and nobody cares. Each pixel measured about 3 inches.



At one time, my opinion was … the blurry photos are more desirable (to Photo Editors).



RE: “supplier of those prints just gets away with that poor quality since nobody is complaining.”



Yes. The main point is nobody seems to complain about image quality these days.

I’ve tried it a few times … the answer is generally … “Nobody else has complained “ … and therefore … I know nothing.



This is probably the main reason people need to buy their own printer.



RE: “you can get great prints from old image files.”



Let’s say …. Interesting prints. They will never be great from a technical point of view, but as I’ve said, it’s generally either content or technical. Bit tricky to get both, but not impossible.



RE: “nk consumption of about 0.8 ml to 1.2 ml for an A4 borderless photo print - that makes 12.8 to 19.2 ml per m2, but that depends very much on the overall ink coverage of your photos. That makes half or less of your assumptions.”



Thanks for taking the time to do that. Good to hear the ink bill will be only $50,000 if I purchase cartridges.

The milliliter measurement wasn’t my own.

It was taken from a couple of web sites discussing that subject … ink per square foot … or whatever.

As with most things on the internet, inaccurate.



RE: “Printing all that volume with a Canon printer will require a few additional spare printheads”



Yes, but a better plan may be to keep replacing it for a new unit each time it breaks. It’s time for the manufacturers to stop making disposable products.



RE: “You can use the Epson 113 pigment inks - Ecotank ink at 15€ or less per bottle - 60-70ml, that's Durabrite like Epson ink as used in the T3100 cartridges@



Great. I’ll look closely at the options when I’m ready to start. The fact that the Epson 113 is genuine removes the possibility of ink that doesn’t live up to its expectations.

It is pretty important to prepare image files for print - this could be some noise suppression - sharpness enhancement - color adjustments etc

You may study Keith's guidelines here

https://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printing-low-megapixel-images/

with links to Youtube videos.

I just recently visited a new office building which has several large format - 2 x 3 meters - prints in the ailses - printed on fabric - framed with LED rails, I'm told that the prints run at 7000€ - each - with a print quality very poor - a pretty noisy image to start with - no good contrast balance across the print - a pretty pixelated print - the printshop apparently wanted to get the prints done as quickly as possible - and some more preprint processing issues. But the supplier of those prints just gets away with that poor quality since nobody is complaining. But if you would do all that to the best you can get great prints from old image files.

Read the article about ‘printing-low-megapixel-images/‘
The up-rezzing software looks interesting. Wish I’d had it ten years ago whilst messing around with my old shots.

 

[photog-art-printer]

Mr Hat:
RE: “your head does seem to be screwed on properly even if I didn’t reckon so originally”



Now you are making me blush. It’s the first nice comment I have received since … ?

(Maybe the only one).



…



Here’s some math to dazzle you - (and don’t ask me how I arrived at the result as I have no idea).



Basically …. It seems the cost of printing 10,000 photos, and buying original ink Epson ink cartridges is $100,000



Can it be true?

Maybe I’ve made a mistake (probably).



—-

Method of calculation:

60ml of ink covers 1.6 meters of paper (according to rough internet search).



Therefore… 1 m2 requires about 40ml of ink (very roughly).



4 of my prints equal about 1m2 of printed paper.



That means 10,000 prints = 2500m2 of printed surface. (It’s important to buy a new printer ….. as the warranty will be used and abused $.



Epson sell the ink (for the t3100) for at least $50 (50 Euro) per 50ml



Shock.

Ink required to cover 2500m2 (10,000 prints roughly 60x40cm) = 100,000ml

(That’s 100 liters).



100,000ml @ $1 per ml = $100,000



Did I make a mistake?

…



Your tip about the Canon 1000 is interesting. If refilling the printer is easy (12 inks), that looks ideal.



Because I will be using rolls of paper, I’ll need to cut this to size manually (10,000!).

The printer costs only 1000 Euro.



I’ll research the bulk ink filling situation soon.



Good solution. Thank you.



—-



Regarding 4 colour versus 9 or 12 colours:



Informative, thank you.

Makes sense that the printer just processes the data.

Until today, I had presumed a photo printer is somehow different.

Armed with your knowledge, I’m in a better position to choose.



—-



Also, I would like to point out my misunderstanding of the term ‘Dye Sublimination’. Apparently it means something different.

In 1990 when I was busy with such things, ‘Dye Sub’ meant buying rolls of RGB plastic that was basically melted onto a sheet of paper



—-



RE: “processed in a wider color space like AdobeRGB from the beginning - starting at the RAW file. “



Yes, understand. Current material all shot in RAW and saved as AdobeRGB. Unfortunately, long ago, when the good shots were taken, I’m sure RAW didn’t exist.

In fact, for historical purposes …. I believe the Kodak scanner used to take about 20 minutes to scan a 6mp file.



Note: Computer speed (Mac Quadra) was 25mhz (Yes, really).

The largest hard drive at that time (1990) was 400mb (Megabytes not Gigabytes).



This translates to roughly 16 RAW files per hard drive (had they existed).

Ink stained Fingers,

There used to be a girl at my school called Fishy Fingers.



RE: “prepare image files for print - this could be some noise suppression - sharpness enhancement - color adjustments”



Yes, I’m familiar with the basics. In fact, I believe my copy of Photoshop may have been the first to be sold in America. $1500 cash …

I’ve used it so much, I’m bored with it. The only thing that keeps me using it is automating tasks.

Most of the 4mp files have been enlarged to about 30mp. A bit soft, but still published daily.

But …. I will visit the page about ‘printing low res images’.

My take on this problem is generally to make them bigger and see what happens … rather than letting the printer try and do it.



RE: “7000€ - each - with a print quality very poor - a pretty noisy image to start with - no good contrast balance across the print - a pretty pixelated print”



Well, yesterday I was inside. Bookstore and it seemed to me, one of the walls was covered with a terrible photo of a church outside the shop… that could have easily be taken properly. The image on the wall was probably shot on a 3mp camera …. and nobody cares. Each pixel measured about 3 inches.



At one time, my opinion was … the blurry photos are more desirable (to Photo Editors).



RE: “supplier of those prints just gets away with that poor quality since nobody is complaining.”



Yes. The main point is nobody seems to complain about image quality these days.

I’ve tried it a few times … the answer is generally … “Nobody else has complained “ … and therefore … I know nothing.



This is probably the main reason people need to buy their own printer.



RE: “you can get great prints from old image files.”



Let’s say …. Interesting prints. They will never be great from a technical point of view, but as I’ve said, it’s generally either content or technical. Bit tricky to get both, but not impossible.



RE: “nk consumption of about 0.8 ml to 1.2 ml for an A4 borderless photo print - that makes 12.8 to 19.2 ml per m2, but that depends very much on the overall ink coverage of your photos. That makes half or less of your assumptions.”



Thanks for taking the time to do that. Good to hear the ink bill will be only $50,000 if I purchase cartridges.

The milliliter measurement wasn’t my own.

It was taken from a couple of web sites discussing that subject … ink per square foot … or whatever.

As with most things on the internet, inaccurate.



RE: “Printing all that volume with a Canon printer will require a few additional spare printheads”



Yes, but a better plan may be to keep replacing it for a new unit each time it breaks. It’s time for the manufacturers to stop making disposable products.



RE: “You can use the Epson 113 pigment inks - Ecotank ink at 15€ or less per bottle - 60-70ml, that's Durabrite like Epson ink as used in the T3100 cartridges@



Great. I’ll look closely at the options when I’m ready to start. The fact that the Epson 113 is genuine removes the possibility of ink that doesn’t live up to its expectations.

In case anyone is interested, this is my understanding of a ‘Dye Sub’ printer. Price on eBay today … 730 Euro. Original price in 1990 … $10,000. The first version (mine) was useless due to lack of UV layer. Prints quickly faded.

 

[photog-art-printer]

Line art - drawings - the printer driver does not know if the pixels it is processing belong to the drawing or a photo - the precision of the dot placement should be at least equivalent - that's a markerting attempt to separate printers into different functional - and pricing classes. But there is a difference between photos and drawings - the ink consumption. There is as well a comparable low cost HP 24" printer - ( I don't know the model number) running with dye inks, that one is advertised for use to print sales posters - the dye inks don't last very long - but a sales action would be over after a week or month anyway. So what - it's the weak ink limiting the use , and not the capability of the printer hardware. Marketing statements are fine but more interesting are those details which are ommitted....

But again - I strongly recommend that you try to get test prints - via a dealer or Epson - we can discuss and explain a lot - but the look at the end makes the difference and should help you to decide - do not just go by the datasheets.

17" wide printers are the Epson SC-P900 or Canon Prograph 1000, but these are not recommended for a CISS installation , even refill may create some obstacles - cartridge chips vs. firmware. There is a tricky hardware work around for the P900 - a cheat board for the cartridge chips.

I'm not aware of 17" Ecotank printers

The image gamut does not relate to the size of the image file - there are some image types with highly saturated colors - flowers - cosmetics/fashion - some birds - but such images need to be processed in a wider color space like AdobeRGB from the beginning - starting at the RAW file.


I don't know - we are discussing options - you decide


P.S. It's the HP Designjet T230

but this runs with slightly larger droplets - 5pl - which would increase the granular look

The choice seems to be either the HP Designjet T230 or Canon 1000.
Thank you for these options. Until now, I hadn’t heard of either.
Canon has 12 inks.
HP uses 4.
Which one?

Which is easier to re-fill?

 

[The Hat]

Basically …. It seems the cost of printing 10,000 photos, and buying original ink Epson ink cartridges is $100,000

The one thing you forgot about, even if the maths, are a bit wonky, is the paper, the paper costs just as much as the ml. of ink on the sheet does, and the second thing you didn’t calculate for was for your time.. Time cost money..

Now you are making me blush. It’s the first nice comment I have received since … ?

(Maybe the only one).

It's something to build on...

 

[photog-art-printer]

The one thing you forgot about, even if the maths, are a bit wonky, is the paper, the paper costs just as much as the ml. of ink on the sheet does, and the second thing you didn’t calculate for was for your time.. Time cost money..

It's something to build on...

Hi (anonymous),

I’m not worried about my time, as I consider it fun to play around with new projects.

In any case, I plan to dump a load of paper into the printer and instruct it to print … without me monitoring it.

We shall see how that works in reality.



Regarding the paper … yes, I’ve thought about it. One idea was to print one of each … to test the market.

If successful, that money will be used to pay for the full printing.



Canon make a Matt paper … about 140gsm … for only 30 Euro per 30m roll.

Not sure why it’s so cheap.



Using original idea … 24“ x 24“ …. 204 rolls required.



204 rolls x 30 Euro = 6130 Euro

 

[photog-art-printer]

Hi (anonymous),

I’m not worried about my time, as I consider it fun to play around with new projects.

In any case, I plan to dump a load of paper into the printer and instruct it to print … without me monitoring it.

We shall see how that works in reality.



Regarding the paper … yes, I’ve thought about it. One idea was to print one of each … to test the market.

If successful, that money will be used to pay for the full printing.



Canon make a Matt paper … about 140gsm … for only 30 Euro per 30m roll.

Not sure why it’s so cheap.



Using original idea … 24“ x 24“ …. 204 rolls required.



204 rolls x 30 Euro = 6130 Euro

If I print 17” x 24” … the paper cost (for 10,000 prints) is around 4470 Euro.
(149 rolls @ 30).

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

- I did ink usage tests with a R265 and R800 longer time ago

- I'm not familiar with the refill options/capabilities of the HP printer

 

[photog-art-printer]

Hi Ink Stained Fingers,
I’m interested in the output quality and ease of refilling.

Information on this site suggests manufacturers ink is superior to generic.

Until now, I had presumed ‘ink is ink’.
My assumption is apparently wrong.
If uou buy pigment ink, and the seller hasn’t adulterated it, I thought it would probably last as long as the OEM product.
My thinking is flawed … according to information here.
Longevity requires genuine ink.

Therefore, I suppose the next question is … which manufacturer sells genuine pigment ink for the best price?

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Until now, I had presumed ‘ink is ink’.
My assumption is apparently wrong.

That's a much too simplistic view, I have published various threads about the longevity performance of inks - genuine - 3rd party - influence of the paper - dye vs. pigment and more

Please have a look here as a start to the subject of longevity - it all depends strongly ................

https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/do-pigment-inks-fade-slower-than-dye-inks.15466/post-134803

............on the manufacturer - Canon - Epson - Hp , the paper used - the display conditions and the generation of inks.
You'll get even wider variations with 3rd party inks.

A range of pigment ink/paper combinations outperforms OEM dye inks - but you can pull out as well dye ink/paper combinations outperforming OEM pigment inks .

3rd party dye inks typically perform worse to much worse than OEM inks

But Canon and Epson are complicating the situation - they offer dye inks - Chromalife 100 or Epson Claria - with very good performance, and they sell as well dye inks for the Ecotank/Megatank printers which are no bettter than cheap 3rd party inks.

I only can recommend you to go with pigment inks for your prints you want to sell , but when it comes to longevity data of 3rd party pigment inks relevant information is almost non-existant - it's all your risk - or you do some upfront tests.

 

[The Hat]

You should ask the @ PK Project Manager to move your posts out of Member Introductions, to its own dedicated thread..