Chromalife 100+ inks in old 100 carts?

[peter D]

Thank you The Hat and Roy for taking the trouble to comment on my problem.
Ironically I suspect that moving to Chernobyl would probably help solve my problem.
I live in New Zealand and close to a surf beach (max 300 metres distant) which means that the ozone content in the air is high along with other components that are common in marine aerosols, the most obvious being salt. The salt coats our windows almost on a weekly basis and along with this it is likely that the ozone dissolves in the moisture laden air to produce a oxidising (aka bleaching) solution which deposits on everything in the path of the sea breeze. In addition an LPG gas kitchen cook top was about 7 metres away from this print which was mounted and matted sitting (mounted without glass) on the floor propped against a wall.
Another print made for a friend on Ilford Smooth Fine Art using the same inset was hung unprotected on a wall in their kitchen area and suffered an almost complete fade without direct sunlight exposure so atmosphere must play a major role.
I have some Red River paper to hand and will conduct some tests with it under near identical conditions to the Pro Platinum Gloss paper.
The reason I used mostly Canon papers was of course initially because of the profiles that came with the printer and the fact that Mikling was kindly providing profiles for the Canon papers to match his inks. I'm very impressed with the service Mike provides and realise that he is making further efforts to match his ink set to the OEM one, the test results he has sent me are very promising and it looks like he has probably cracked it.
Taking The Hat's advice to heart I'm also considering running OEM inks with Canon papers for printing any work that I might sell. Whether I can swop ink sets back and forth for this purpose looks like a subject that is ideal for this forum if it hasn't been dealt with already. The dreaded yellow gel problem might rear its ugly head with ink on it's way to the print head nozzles if one wasn't careful I suppose.

Has anyone else experienced the same yellow highlighting problem with B&W prints that I've run into with some Canon papers and IS inks?
Thank you all once again for your interest.

 

[mikling]

As long as you know you have ozone in the environment, you have to immediately realise that at least the following must be done. It must be framed that is airtight...or you will HAVE to get swellable paper or both. Getting more UV resistant inks will make the situation worse. I explained this in technical terms in the Epson section. It is believed that Canon made this mistake bigtime in one generation of their Chromalife series. Which one? It is embarrassing to Canon. However, their desires to advance dye ink is backed with complex formulas and complexity....yellow issue comes to mind.

For anyone thinking of refilling and want fade resistant prints in any environment. Always remember, you will have paid less in total by purchasing something like a Pro-10 at a higher price and then acquire refill PIGMENT inks. These will be superior to even OEM dyes. How quickly.....depending on the deal acquired....two sets or three sets of cartridges. So think carefully. We always hear folks say, they would acquire a more expensive printer if they could refill it easily. The Pro-10 is it. Reliable, easy to refill and does pretty much everything the low volume print person would want...and it can print on glossy paper if that is what you want. And no worry about fade in most cases.

Second thing. The desktop ink market is headed down in a big way. Existing ink mfrs are simply not interested in pursuing a small market. It doesn't pay. They have labor expenses as well as inventory and warehousing space. For the existing remanufacturers...they accept the "good enough" syndrome. They are also faced with increased costs and space and a market that is shrinking.

This is where I step in. Through my knowledge and ability I am able to mix down off the shelf compatible inks to create an inkset for the remaining people who print photos. Yes, IS does not list it. They are not interested in making it. I mix it and it is my formula that puts bread on the table.
So I cannot divulge to others what colors I use etc. It is a skill and art is involved. It is very time consuming and you have to be meticulous. Use machines you say? like what the paint shop uses? Does not work because ink droplets are not mixed but appear so when seen. Colors essentially change as they are placed next to other colors. You have to have a "feel" for it. So anyone questioning where I get my inks from. So far....up to 2015 IS. Beyond..I have to seek other colors......and other suppliers I can trust. In the end, you always need to print. Matching close ink colors by themselves does not mean end prints that matches equally closely.

The revisions to the inkset that I will be coming forward with in the next day or two is NOT from Image Specialists. When I made the Pro-100 inkset, it became obvious to me that I had to seek afar to see what other colors I could come with. The dyes that IS used just were not hitting the family of tones I required. I was too busy and released the inkset but I knew that I needed to seek elsewhere. at some point down the road. That point has now been reached and forced upon me sooner than I would have wanted. I have been toiling many many hours to get this done quickly in the last two weeks.

The first of my newer inks was the EV6 inkset for Claria based Epson printers. Excellent inks far superior to IS's older inkset..did I say super?. IS was first out of the gate with a decent inkset for the Claria series but time has passed and I have put that one to rest. I have discontinued the older IS inkset and have been shipping the EV6 . I have been too busy to list it but purchasers were getting a free upgrade since last fall. Superior gamut, excellent color match and fade resistance...possibly one of the best out there....The Pro-100 was slated to be the next one to work on to upgrade. Meanwhile I had completed my tests on a superb new K3 inkset that is a hybrid of more than one supplier. Some are from STS and some from the new supplier. I don't mix pigment because of chemistry issues...as some, including pharmacist was to discover. In any case, by careful selection of colors that complement each other, I was able to get an excellent K3 inkset. ..due to be listed on my site when time permits. STS claims dead on accurate in their literature. I do better with equal color match but superior linearity by combining certain of their colors with some from somewhere else. The combination is my own in house creation.

Fast forward today and I have slated to introduce a far superior inkset for the Canon 221/226/521/526 series. Stunning. Again not all are from IS ink in this inkset. This will be the PC225 inkset..including a proper matched gray ink.

The process of putting these new inks outs is painstaking in that each revision requires time and patience. Each iteration of a color needs a cart to be filled, then a series of test images must be performed, allowed to dry and then assess. All colors of the spectrum must be carefully inspected as changes in say light gray will affect offwhite and even skintones as well....not just black and white. Adjust repeat. Adjust repeat. etc.

So do I make the inks? No, but do I make the inkset. Well you decide. I don't just purchase, fill bottles and ship out as many think I do. Much of my current work requires advanced skillsets that I have developed over the years. Maybe I've finally put in my 10,000 hours to become an artist. You decide. But that is what I do and that is the only way I know how to put out a decent inkset from what is currently being made.

You might now understand why there are few inksets out there. It's a lot of work with not a lot of payback.

More of my current work will be revealed as 2015 further advances.

 

[peter D]

Thank you Mike for your comprehensive article on the fading of inkjet prints and aftermarket ink sets in general. I appreciate being brought up to speed on the difficulties involved.
Most of my printing over the past two years has been for my own satisfaction and that of two other fellow members of a local photographic society which conducts print critiques once a month. The dye prints have been imminently suitable for that. I've sold a very small number of prints most of which have been produced using OEM ink. Only two print sales that I know of have involved your inks so any problems that might manifest are relatively easy to address.
I'm still working through the first 2oz refill pack so my printing volume is quite low.
Converted for currency in New Zealand a Pro-100 costs between US$604 and US$750 from an online store undelivered. and the Pro-10 US$850-US$1080 so you can see that Canon has a tight grip on the prices. The Adorama NY price is US$148 for the Pro-100 which is cheaper than an OEM inkset for one here in NZ. With the current prices in my country it is evident that the Pro-10 is now the better option compared with USA prices.
Is it any wonder that the interest in printing is declining among amateur photographers in my country?
Anyway I make this point to illustrate that one has to be very keen in my country to want to take up larger format low volume inkjet printing for private use.
I take your point with the HP Swellable papers being a good choice and in fact I've already been printing on this paper and still have at least an A4 pack in stock also I'll likely try the Printguard product to see if that helps seal up the surface of any prints that I'm intending to display for extended periods.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

@peter D: Swellable papers are history. I started a thread on this topic four years ago, papers that is. I just updated ten days or so ago:

"After posting the above, I did find that in the 13x19" Glossy size, B&H says "Discontinued," Adorama says, "On order," ("HP CZ985A Premium Gloss Inkjet Photo Paper, 13x19", 25 Sheets") and one vendor on Amazon has it for $64 box inc. shipping. (http://www.amazon.com/HP-Premium-Glossy-Photo-Paper/dp/B007S79HCU ) Sort of interesting, I think, is that the Amazon Vendor has more detail and specs on the paper than Adorama and B&H, and says, "This paper is designed and tested to provide peak performance with your HP Designjet large format printer. HP Premium glossy Photo Paper is ideal for the HP Designjet T-Series printers and the HP Designjet 130 Printer series using original HP dye-based inks." That leads me to think that maybe the paper is being dropped from the consumer sales channels but will be around for awhile for professional LF printers.

No letter size to be found. I'm tempted to buy what I can, but I guess the smart thing is to just take it like a man and learn to live with microporous."

So now I have a box of Ilford Classic with no ICC profile for my PRO-100. Way too little saturation. Also some HP papers, much better.

As to sealing a dye print, plain clear lacquer is you best best, based on a lot of experiments here. Lacquer, used front and back, will slow down the infiltration of moisture and atmospheric gasses, but short of glass or metal nothing is 100%. I think only Hannemuhl makes a lacquer overcoat. Lacquer has almost no permeability, especially compared to acrylic and varnish products. In fact the cellophane that keeps your foods dry use lacquer as a barrier.

As to the UV protection of those sprays, I'm not encouraged in my tests. Too little.

 

[peter D]

@peter D: Swellable papers are history. I started a thread on this topic four years ago, papers that is. I just updated ten days or so ago:

"After posting the above, I did find that in the 13x19" Glossy size, B&H says "Discontinued," Adorama says, "On order," ("HP CZ985A Premium Gloss Inkjet Photo Paper, 13x19", 25 Sheets") and one vendor on Amazon has it for $64 box inc. shipping. (http://www.amazon.com/HP-Premium-Glossy-Photo-Paper/dp/B007S79HCU ) Sort of interesting, I think, is that the Amazon Vendor has more detail and specs on the paper than Adorama and B&H, and says, "This paper is designed and tested to provide peak performance with your HP Designjet large format printer. HP Premium glossy Photo Paper is ideal for the HP Designjet T-Series printers and the HP Designjet 130 Printer series using original HP dye-based inks." That leads me to think that maybe the paper is being dropped from the consumer sales channels but will be around for awhile for professional LF printers.

No letter size to be found. I'm tempted to buy what I can, but I guess the smart thing is to just take it like a man and learn to live with microporous."

So now I have a box of Ilford Classic with no ICC profile for my PRO-100. Way too little saturation. Also some HP papers, much better.

As to sealing a dye print, plain clear lacquer is you best best, based on a lot of experiments here. Lacquer, used front and back, will slow down the infiltration of moisture and atmospheric gasses, but short of glass or metal nothing is 100%. I think only Hannemuhl makes a lacquer overcoat. Lacquer has almost no permeability, especially compared to acrylic and varnish products. In fact the cellophane that keeps your foods dry use lacquer as a barrier.

As to the UV protection of those sprays, I'm not encouraged in my tests. Too little.

Thanks Paul for the update on your experiences with trying to source HP swellable paper.
As regards my earlier statements regarding Ozone content in sea water aerosols after reading a little more of the research on the subject I'm now of the opinion that the situation is so complex that without more chemistry knowledge I'm unlikely to comprehend even the basics. It is evident however that strong oxidising agents can be present including hydrogen peroxide.
I note your comments regarding the superiority of lacquers for protection of prints.
In New Zealand I can readily source the Helmar Crystal Coat products ie the Fixative and the Picture Varnish in both matt and gloss. These are non yellowing solvent based products packaged in Australia. Hannemuhl spray is more difficult to source here.
I'll give them a try with dye prints and post the results.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

@peter D:
I agree, the matter of gases and contaminants in the air is very, very complex. I live in what should be a pretty clean environment, on the water, the Gulf of Mexico two miles west. Yet, plenty of dirt as evidenced by the window sills. Ozone, regardless of anything else, constitutes .6% of the atmosphere, nothing to be done about it.

You don't need to buy artsy lacquers. Go to the hardware store, they are about half the price or less (at least in USA). The UV protection in the sprays, as I've tested, are worthless.

Make sure you get lacquer, not a varnish. Lacquer will be identified as such and will, oddly enough, smell like lacquer! Solvent based varnishes will smell like mineral spirits. Even "odorless" MS has a bit of scent, and certainly nothing like lacquer or shellac (alcohol.)

Make sure your prints are very dry before locking the moisture in with lacquer, especially swellable polymer types. Let dry for at least a day, or some gentle heat to under 200 F.

 

[peter D]

Do any reputable ink manufacturers on the world make an ink set for the Pixma Pro100 ie a refill ink for ChromaLife100+ ?
I've asked Marrutt Ltd in the UK to update on an enquiry I made over 18 months ago and they advised recently that no progress had been made on this issue with their supplier which I understand is Lyson inks.
My suspicion is that this Canon ink set very difficult to accurately duplicate and that part of the problem is that the yellow colour has a different formulation for how it reacts with the coating on Canon papers.

My experience printing B&W using inks other than OEM has issues with yellow highlighting on at a least two papers that I've used and especially the Canon Pro Platinum gloss paper. This defect is not that apparent until the print is nearly fully cured ie 7 days after printing and is most apparent where the original colour file contained green foliage colours. Greyscale conversion in Photoshop CS to get rid of any colour info in the file does not fix this problem which suggests to me that it could be something to do with the response of the inks to the coating.

02/02/2014 An update on the yellow highlighting problem with B&W prints.
I decided to take another look at the processing of the files that I was having this problem with and tentatively so far have found that the method of B&W conversion from a colour file makes a big difference to the severity of this problem. If the original colour file is converted using NIK SilverFX rather than using Photoshop black and white adjustment layer the problem can be much more pronounced especially if certain filters are used to enhance the SilverFX conversion. This problem persists as I said previously even if a grayscale conversion is used after B&W conversion to remove any colour information from the file. Using a Photoshop conversion of the colour file has so far removed over 80% of the yellow high lighting problem from the same image even after allowing a print curing time of four of five days.
Similar problems with overall green cast appearing in prints done with a Pixma Pro-100 printer using OEM inks were reported on a Canon users forum some years back and two of the submitters to that forum reported a green colour cast problem that didn't show up on their monitors but did when printing a NIK SilverFX converted colour file.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

@peter D: Hate to tell you, but I've never had a problem with any Canon printer, including the PRO-100, with color casts in B&W prints. I usually convert to grayscale in Irfanview, although I've used a fair number of others, too.

Have you tried just using the Canon Print Grayscale option?

 

[peter D]

@peter D: Hate to tell you, but I've never had a problem with any Canon printer, including the PRO-100, with color casts in B&W prints. I usually convert to grayscale in Irfanview, although I've used a fair number of others, too.

Have you tried just using the Canon Print Grayscale option?

No I haven't Paul and I'd agree with you to the extent that apart from a magenta cast with some printed files I've not been that troubled by overall casts either. I suspect Mike's (Precision Colors) latest ink set will address any fine tweaking issues that I've had up to date.
The issue in this particular case was unusual in that it didn't really show up until the print had well and truly cured for several days. Then a faint yellow outlining would appear in the shadow areas particularly where foliage both green and brown was a feature of the image.
I've not tried the B&W conversion that comes with the printer software because I generally like to utilise a few colour filter enhancement options that are available in NIK SilverFX and I had noticed in the Canon forum that comments by users about the Pro-100 when printing B&W files all mentioned "to be sure to untick the B&W option box" in the printer driver software.
Hope I'm making sense here.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

I understand perfectly, especially about the use of filters on a color image to change the B&W look.

As to printing in gray scale only, try it. Use what works. Stick with Canon papers, at least until you start sorting things out. Eliminates a variable.