Caught out on Colour matching..

[Roy Sletcher]

Please refrain from selling your organs or services as a gigolo on this fine establishment or I will have to report you to the new deputy.

Please refrain from selling your organs or services as a gigolo on this fine establishment or I will have to report you to the new deputy.

Oh please, please not The Hat!

Can I do penance instead?

RS

 

[Smile]

Hi Smile,

Thank you for replying - even though you did NOT answer my question or add any useful information to the subject. I respect the fact that English is understandably not your language of choice, but I would like to respond to the following points you make.

Exactly what parts of the colormunki are not a proper spectro as you say? It is, after all, an entry level instrument for US$500.

The alternative is that or nothing for most of us amateurs. In my view, even with its limitations, it is better than nothing. Sure the software is limited, but I repeat "entry level". Too much complication could produce marketing problems.

The news that X-Rite shares have been acquired by another company is already 5 years old, and basically irrelevant to this discussion.

My motivation for this discussion is that I want something better than the colormunki at a reasonable price - about US$1,000 or less. From what I can see there is not much available because building and bringing to market a good reliable quality spectro capable of being calibrated costs somewhere in the price range of the i1pro2. Probably even more as you do not seem to think much of the i1pro2

I do enjoy your perspectives and comments. They add much to these threads.

Roy Sletcher

You could buy the older by todays standards i1Pro spectro called the es-1000, same spectro but marketed by many brands, they put their logo and sell them under their brand etc.

Many now on ebay, demand quality certificate (paperwork) and lamp burning time via diagnostic app with the spectro then you could get a bargain.

Spectro is as good as software that drives it. Since es-1000 is most widely supported spectro you should have your money working as hard as it can for you. This is good investment.

Sure the i1Pro2 can read UV and UV-cut modes, but since it has 2 light sources
(tungsten A like older i1Pro and LED) the spectral plots differ even from i1isis that is out of this class. So reliability is better with older spectro and if you need both modes UV and UV-cut modes, you need to buy 2 spectros.

Also there is the
http://www.barbierielectronic.com/en/products/spectrophotometers/spectropad/91-338.html
Now that thing is using only LED light source like i1isis, this means the light source will last very very long. That is the primary reason for choosing this device, long term investment that will not require you to worry about lamp failure.

But the spectropad is not widely supported like es-1000, so you can't connect it to printers, RIPS, standalone equipment etc. You can reals and save data to files then manipulate it with excel etc. That is if the software that needs the data can import it, if it has import features.

 

[Smile]

O.k., if not X-Rite, you have another choice with datacolor

http://spyder.datacolor.com/portfolio-view/spyderprint/

NEVER PAY MONEY FOR THIS CRAP. It is a Toy.

 

[Roy Sletcher]

You could buy the older by todays standards i1Pro spectro called the es-1000, same spectro but marketed by many brands, they put their logo and sell them under their brand etc.

Many now on ebay, demand quality certificate (paperwork) and lamp burning time via diagnostic app with the spectro then you could get a bargain.

Spectro is as good as software that drives it. Since es-1000 is most widely supported spectro you should have your money working as hard as it can for you. This is good investment.

Sure the i1Pro2 can read UV and UV-cut modes, but since it has 2 light sources
(tungsten A like older i1Pro and LED) the spectral plots differ even from i1isis that is out of this class. So reliability is better with older spectro and if you need both modes UV and UV-cut modes, you need to buy 2 spectros.

Also there is the
http://www.barbierielectronic.com/en/products/spectrophotometers/spectropad/91-338.html
Now that thing is using only LED light source like i1isis, this means the light source will last very very long. That is the primary reason for choosing this device, long term investment that will not require you to worry about lamp failure.

But the spectropad is not widely supported like es-1000, so you can't connect it to printers, RIPS, standalone equipment etc. You can reals and save data to files then manipulate it with excel etc. That is if the software that needs the data can import it, if it has import features.

Thanks for the information Smile. I found it very useful.

Also followed up the references you listed. It is obvious there is a limited number of hardware manufacturers, whose products are re-branded and packaged with differing trade or retail brand names in different market areas. The searches for the es-1000 kept coming back to x-rite in North America.

When you refer to the x-rite i1pro, the only reference I could find is the i1 Display Pro which I have, and is for monitors and projectors, not printers. After that the Colormunki which I also have and would classify as adequate at best. Then the i1Pro2 for a more sophisticated product in the $2,000 price range, and I am waiting for a special deal or a miraculous price drop to appear.

Your links also led to several eBay listings, many of them in plastic bags or plain containers. Something of a risk for somebody like me who is not a techie. Also I am only interested as an amateur. Do not need the industrial strength commercial editions.

I know you say "Spectro is as good as software that drives it", but the quality of an ICC profile is entirely dependent on the quality of the measurement data. This requires the integration of the software and the hardware, and unless you are a knowledgeable technician, which I suspect you are, one has to rely on the integrated retail packages of hardware and software to do the job properly.

The information you supplied was much appreciated.

Roy Sletcher

 

[Harvey]

Any opinions about Profile Prism? It relies on a scanner to make profiles, I like the fact that you only scan the pattern printed, have any of you have tested a recent version?

 

[Smile]

Any opinions about Profile Prism? It relies on a scanner to make profiles, I like the fact that you only scan the pattern printed, have any of you have tested a recent version?

No, I have not tried it should work OK if scanner is profiled, I do make IT8 targets. References are either batch scanned or individual for each target. But scanner profile making is a bit complicated due to fact that scanner software like VueScan 9 is very complicated, and there is no clear directions on how to scan.

Add the fact that VueScan has RAW linear scan, well they call it RAW but it still produces tiff file. And you have bunch of variables that oh my... The scans from VueScan in RAW mode should be processed by color perfect plugin.

I had bought and returned (because of ccd defect) film scanner so I did not get to in depth color management stuff about scanning with VueScan.

If scanner software is clear about settings then it's relatively easy to make scanner profile with COCA software that uses argyll. http://www.muscallidus.com/coca/
and IT8 target with reference for it.

When scanner profile is made you have to scan a special gray strip like this one
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/26662-REG/Kodak_1527654_Color_Separation_Guide_and.html

And make sure every patch is visible once profile is applied. If the lightest patches a burned out, you adjust the gamma slider in COCA software to compensate for it. Once you found the sweet spot you label you profile accordingly so next time you know how to reproduce it.

The gray target can be substituted with a printed gray strip etc. As long as it is somewhat similar to kodak one, you can also use IT8 target itself but a dedicated strip is recommended as it should have more steps so gamma can be set more precise.

 

[Roy Sletcher]

Any opinions about Profile Prism? It relies on a scanner to make profiles, I like the fact that you only scan the pattern printed, have any of you have tested a recent version?

Interesting you mention Profile Prism.

As a fan of Mike Cheney's products I was an early adopter - Must have been around 2007 to 2008 when hardware solutions were non-existent or cost in the thousands.

Just pulled my records and the last profile I made was with version 6.5 around June 2008.

In 2008 I purchased the spyderprint for an outrageous amount by current price levels. It led to a world of pain getting good profiles.
FOR THE RECORD - there are users getting good results with Spyderprint. I was not one of them - and for what I paid was very disappointed.

My impression of Profile Prism was that it worked exactly as described for what was a very reasonable price - I think $70 or so. Quality was very much dependent on using an approved scanner and very careful methjodology. Mike Cheney gave his list of preferred scanners - mostly Canon that retailed very economically - around $99.00. Remember at that time only professionals, serious amateurs, or nut cases like me took colour management seriously. Information about products and methodology was hard to come by. The fact that a lot of graphic software is still not properly colour manged is a legacy from that time as most amateur users still do not take it seriously or even understand it. To their cost I may add. (Rant off)

But I digress. To answer your question Harvey - Looking at the results of the profile prism profiles they still look surprisingly good 7 years later. (One advantage of always printing the same reference file. The comparison is valid) Don't know number of current version, but would trust a Mike Cheney product to perform as described. His pricing and support is second to none. Another example of an enterprising small business.

OK - Sorry - I'm waffling again but have tried to give useful info.

Your mileage may vary.

Roy Sletcher

Some of the advantages of colour management:
More accurate colour - More consistent colour - Potentially a wider colour gamut on devices that support it (e.g. many printers and wide-gamut monitors) - Fewer "why the heck did it come out that colour?" moments

 

[martin0reg]

...
My impression of Profile Prism was that it worked exactly as described for what was a very reasonable price - I think $70 or so. Quality was very much dependent on using an approved scanner and very careful methjodology....

Regarding the approach of "profile prism" and the price, I want to throw in this:
http://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/making-a-printer-profile-by-using-your-digital-camera.7426/
..works with a camera not a scanner..