Canon Pixma MP830 - Light cyan not printing during nozzle check

[ghwellsjr]

You have to be very careful not to jump to incorrect conclusions when trying different things. For example, when you switched to your new print head, you assumed that the working yellow and then the nonworking magenta were a result of a difference between the two print heads. But to make sure, you really need to swap your print heads several times and repeat the same tests. But, of course, you're not really trying to figure out what is happening, you're trying to get your printer to work correctly.

Many years ago, I ran many tests with a pair of print heads and a pair of cyan cartridges, one Canon and one compatible. I had ink flow problems with one of the print heads and the compatible cartridge. But it took a lot of testing to narrow this down. You can read about my experience here:

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=6935#p6935

In this link, I explain how air and ink flows in a Canon cartridge and why it is important to have the two different types of sponge material. If you understand this, you can easily see why it is necessary to plug up the hole made in the bottom of the cartridge when filling with the German method. The reason to plug it is not to prevent ink from leaking out, it is to prevent air from flowing in. I doubt that any of your problems are caused by contamination and I don't think you need to flush your cartridges.

If you are interested in learning what is going on (rather than just keeping your printer working), here is what I suggest you do.

Try to recreate the problem you had with the new print head and the refilled magenta cartridge. Just put it back in your printer, hopefully without having made any changes to it, do a cleaning cycle and see if it has an ink flow problem. If the problem doesn't reappear immediately, continue to use if for awhile. It is important to start with the problem.

Once you see the problem of the magenta not printing correctly, remove the magenta cartridge from the printer and refill it using the German method just as you have done before. This probably just means topping it off but also make sure there is plenty of ink in the lower sponge. Try not to get any ink in the upper sponge. Then seal the refill hole with tape or hot glue and put it back in the printer. See if the problem has gone away.

If you solve the magenta problem and you feel ambitious, you can try your old print head with the yellow cartridge that was giving you problems and see if you can get it to first have the same problem and then apply the same solution that worked for the magenta and see if you can get the yellow working on your old print head. Your experimentation can benefit many people.

On the other hand, you may end up with no working print heads.

 

[Trigger 37]

Statman,...and others,....I know that all those that use the German method insist that the needle they use does ABSOLUTLY NO DAMAGE TO THE BOTTOM SPONGE. There is also a different material more like a tiny felt pad at the exit port. For the needle to get past all of this and reach the reservoir it may not damage either of these, but it will disturb them and leave a tiny air pocket at the bottom of the sponge chamber.

One of the things I have learned in working with all kinds of printers, especially the HP brand, is that their ink carts are very suseptable to pockets of air. If one is trapped inside their cartridges it will eventually completely stop the flow of ink. As my previous note pointed out, any air in the path will destroy the vacuum necessary to keep the flow of ink moving in a solid chain. Any MICRO-BUBBLE of air will break the chain and the printhead will run dry.

The German method not only introduces a small chamber the size of a needle that runs directly past the exit port (in may have even punctured the port), it also supplies a direct path for more air. It would not matter if this hole is filled, the air is already there.

Many of you that have ever tried to syphon any water or gas or any other liquid from one place to another using a tube will know how impossible it is to do this if there is any air what so ever in the tube (in this case in the path). Once the air pocket is there,...how are you going to get rid of it. You can't just inject ink into the bottom hole again,... where will the air go. You can't compress it. That is why air pockets can destroy any HP ink cart, and same for the newer Canon CL-40 ink carts.

People don't watch that close when they inject ink with a syringe,... there is always some air at the top. Haven't you all seen the movies where the nurse draws some antibiotic out of a bottle with a needle and syringe,.. and then she turns it vertical and forces out all the air until she see some fluid exit. Otherwise she would be inject an air bubble into the patient and immediatly killing him. Same thing happens when you inject ink into a HP ink cart. The last thing that goes into the cart is just air. It is like people are killing their own ink carts. With the Canon ink carts this is not a problem because the air always rizes to the top of the reservoir or to the top of the sponge section,...if it can get their,...but it really can't pass the liquid sponge so it is trapped.

As I have said before,... it is beyond my understanding why people will continue to use this method, when this web site is the HOME OF HOW TO REFILL INK CARTS. From the first day I found this site 3 years ago I have used the basic refill process. I have taken apart and repaired over 50 printers in that time and modified all the ink carts the same way. I've sold all of those printers and never had a problem. I have 4 Canon printers I use on a day to day basis and all are modifed and use Stainless steel screws to seal the fill hole. I have in fact used the same ink carts in each printer for almost 3 years of refilling and I've never had a problem yet. This refill method returns the ink cart to the exact condition it was when it was new and that is why it always works.

 

[stratman]

You have to be very careful not to jump to incorrect conclusions when trying different things. For example, when you switched to your new print head, you assumed that the working yellow and then the nonworking magenta were a result of a difference between the two print heads. But to make sure, you really need to swap your print heads several times and repeat the same tests. But, of course, you're not really trying to figure out what is happening, you're trying to get your printer to work correctly.

More observations than assumptions. Two different printheads, two different tolerances. One difference between improperly performing Yellow and Magenta was that the ink-filled Yellow was lying on its side during all the testing while a second Yellow cartridge was used for hot water testing, and the Magenta was refilled a few cleanings and nozzle checks before putting in the new printhead. Possibly the ink filled Yellow cartridge had time to thoroughly wet the sponge while the Magenta sponge side was not saturated yet from refilling. Still, with all the cleanings done you would think the refilled Magenta would be saturated in equilibrium.

In this link, I explain how air and ink flows in a Canon cartridge and why it is important to have the two different types of sponge material. If you understand this, you can easily see why it is necessary to plug up the hole made in the bottom of the cartridge when filling with the German method. The reason to plug it is not to prevent ink from leaking out, it is to prevent air from flowing in. I doubt that any of your problems are caused by contamination and I don't think you need to flush your cartridges.

This certainly has crossed my mind and will be tried if the problem reoccurs.

Try to recreate the problem you had with the new print head and the refilled magenta cartridge. Just put it back in your printer, hopefully without having made any changes to it, do a cleaning cycle and see if it has an ink flow problem. If the problem doesn't reappear immediately, continue to use if for awhile. It is important to start with the problem.

I am using the Yellow ink cartridge now with the new printhead. So far it's working as expected. It is the Magenta that was removed and replaced with a factory new OEM Magenta cartridge when the old Magenta cartridge began mis-printing. I have that Magenta cartridge capped and sealed in a plastic bag. Once I get through with my print jobs I will reinstall the problem Magenta and see what happens. (assuming the new OEM Magenta does not give me problems beforehand!)

Once you see the problem of the magenta not printing correctly, remove the magenta cartridge from the printer and refill it using the German method just as you have done before. This probably just means topping it off but also make sure there is plenty of ink in the lower sponge. Try not to get any ink in the upper sponge. Then seal the refill hole with tape or hot glue and put it back in the printer. See if the problem has gone away.

If you solve the magenta problem and you feel ambitious, you can try your old print head with the yellow cartridge that was giving you problems and see if you can get it to first have the same problem and then apply the same solution that worked for the magenta and see if you can get the yellow working on your old print head.

Agree.

Your experimentation can benefit many people.

That's what this forum is all about!

On the other hand, you may end up with no working print heads.

You're not instilling me with confidence here. :/

 

[stratman]

Statman,...and others,....I know that all those that use the German method insist that the needle they use does ABSOLUTLY NO DAMAGE TO THE BOTTOM SPONGE. There is also a different material more like a tiny felt pad at the exit port. For the needle to get past all of this and reach the reservoir it may not damage either of these, but it will disturb them and leave a tiny air pocket at the bottom of the sponge chamber.

Agree. Also, I know there must be damage to the sponge because it is deformed and has that channel. But that does not mean that tolerances are significantly disrupted so as to cause my problem. On the other hand, I am more suspicicious of air bubbles inthe channel as a cause for my problems. The introduction of air must be from refilling technique, such as notsquirting a small amount of ink as I withdraw the needle. If there is negative pressure at the tip of the needle then the air/air bubles from the spongeless side may follow the needle tip as the needle is withdraw. Withdrawing the needle itself probably dreates negative pressure, as would releasing my squeezing on the Howard Electronics plastic bottles as I withdraw the needle, causing the bottle to create negative pressure at the needle tip.

One workaround might be turning the cartridge rightside up (ink exit port pointing towards the ground), allowing the air pocket / air bubbles to rise to the top of the cartridge away from the needle, and then withdraw the needle.

The German method not only introduces a small chamber the size of a needle that runs directly past the exit port (in may have even punctured the port), it also supplies a direct path for more air. It would not matter if this hole is filled, the air is already there.

Makes sense.

Haven't you all seen the movies where the nurse draws some antibiotic out of a bottle with a needle and syringe,.. and then she turns it vertical and forces out all the air until she see some fluid exit. Otherwise she would be inject an air bubble into the patient and immediatly killing him.

It actually takes a good amount of air injected to kill someone, but point taken. Just didn't want people to freak out if the nurse/doctor gives them an injection and there is a tiny, tiny air bubble in the syringe.

From the first day I found this site 3 years ago I have used the basic refill process. ... I have 4 Canon printers I use on a day to day basis and all are modifed and use Stainless steel screws to seal the fill hole. I have in fact used the same ink carts in each printer for almost 3 years of refilling and I've never had a problem yet. This refill method returns the ink cart to the exact condition it was when it was new and that is why it always works.

I have a set of the silicon plugs from Mikling's Precision Colors ink set. I may try them out in the virgin cartridges I have and give the traditional refill method a try.

I still have to wonder how people like Defcon, who introduced the Durchstich Method to Nifty-Stuff IIRC, has not experienced a cartridge failure or a problem like mine despite dozens of refills on a cartridge. What is he doing differently than others with problems? Blunt vs Sharp? 18 guage vs 20-22 guage? Or is it something unrelated to the refill method?

As time allows, I will experiement and see if i can find a more definitive answer.

 

[emerald]

Trigger 37, Thanks for your help and encouragement on the forum.

Excerpt from your post #15, this string:

Here is my suggestions on how to keep your printer in top condition.
1. Never turn the printer off. Each time you turn it OFF and back ON, it will do a cleaning cycle and it will dump 10 times more ink than it takes to print a nozzle check. Not only are you saving ink, but if you print a nozzle check each day, or at least something each day you are keeping fresh ink in the head at all times.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree with keeping power on all the time. I have two i960 printers - PRINTER 1 and PRINTER 2. PRINTER 1 is now setting on the work bench with the cover and base removed. It's up on two boards with newspaper and folded towels to observe the purge system functions. I'm also flushing and drying the ink waste pads. All this info is besides the point, which is: PRINTER 1 operates normally in all respects except that after being idle for 10-12 minutes it shuts off. Depressing the power button returns it to the on condition (green light) but it later shuts off. I suspect there's something I've yet to learn about options. I've reviewed the Canon maintenance manual and your excellent maintenance manual and find no reference to an option that explains this condition. PRINTER 2 is intact and being used at my desk. Power stays on all the time.

Could PRINTER 1 be shutting off after 10-12 minutes because the cover is off? Is there an option defined somewhere in the maintenance icon tabs that I've overlooked? Operating systems on both desk and bench computers are dual boot Windows 98 AND XP. This should not matter because PRINTER 1 shuts off when the computer is off or disconnected. I "THINK" that PRINTER 1 did not shut down when I first started checking it out while it had the cover and bottom. I'm not as confident about my memory as I was in years gone by. Maybe it did and I failed to notice it. Old dog, new tricks!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh Boy, I feel dumb. I AM dumb. On the i960 maintenance tab is an icon labeled "Auto Power." I marked the option desired and then clicked the Send button. That was over one half hour ago and now the printer stays on. Old dog, dumb dog!

 

[ghwellsjr]

According to this link, some Canon printers have an auto power feature and others do not:

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=23957#p23957

And here is one that says where to find it on one model of Canon printer:

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=11583#p11583

 

[Trigger 37]

emerald,... Sorry for being so late in this response. My system crashed awhile back and I lost a lot of mail and I've been working on the recovery. I thought I had it all done but then I found a lot of email that I had never responded to.

I'm glad to see you found the "Auto Power" control. I knew you would find it sooner or later. Since you have the other printer up on blocks, if you put a small glass dish under the exit tube you would really see just how much ink is dumped. One other thing to warn people about is the "Return to Park Position" function that all Canon printers do. After 1 minute of idle time the printer will always return the printhead to the park position and raise the pads to seal the bottom of the head. This helps prevent drying out. The problem is many people open up the locking bar on the printhead to remove ink and then forget it. In one minute the printer will DRIVE THAT PRINTHEAD TO THE PARK POSITION EVEN IF THE LEVER IS UP, AS IT HAS NO WAY OF DETECTING THIS POSITION. THIS WILL JAM THE CARRIAGE INTO THE TOP RIGHT COVER AND HAS DONE SERIOUS DAMAGE TO MANY PRINTERS. THE SAME THING WILL HAPPEN EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE LEVER UP AND HAVE REMOVED THE PRINTHEAD.

SO I ADVISE EVERYONE TO PULL THE POWER CORD OUT EACH TIME THEY ARE WORKING WITH INK OR THE PRINTHEAD ONCE THE COVER IS OPEN AND THE HEAD COMES TO THE CENTER OF THE PRINTER. IT IS A GOOD HABIT TO GET INTO. OF COURSE, ONCE YOU FORGET TO DO THIS AND DAMAGE THE CARRIAGE, YOU WON'T FORTGET THE NEXT TIME!

 

[leo8088]

Trigger 37, Thanks for your help and encouragement on the forum.

Excerpt from your post #15, this string:

Here is my suggestions on how to keep your printer in top condition.
1. Never turn the printer off. Each time you turn it OFF and back ON, it will do a cleaning cycle and it will dump 10 times more ink than it takes to print a nozzle check.

This is not true, at least not to many Canon printers I own. It is probably true to most Epson printers but not to Canons. Most Canon printers will do a cleaning cycle only if the printer ha been shut down for a long time. It is like a week or longer. If it is shut down for a little while or even a day it does not run a cleaning cycle after powering on. There is always a powering up process that includes self checking of rollers, print head carriage, ink cartridges, etc. right after powering up. But it will begin to print without a cleaning cycle after the self checking is done if a print job is to be done. The self checking process does move the carriage back and forth and turns rollers that may make you feel that it is doing a cleaning cycle.

That said, I do leave my printer on all day for other reasons. I do turn off the printer if I feel that there is no more printing for the day.

For Canon printers with chipped ink cartridges they will run a cleaning cycle each time after detecting that an ink cartridge has been unplugged and then plugged back in. This will waste a lot of ink indeed. If you need to check ink level by unplugging a cartridge you may want to check all cartridges. There will be still one cleaning cycle afterwards. The cleaning cycle is memorized and is executed right before the printer prints something next time.

 

[Trigger 37]

leo8088,.... You are partially correct, but I did not want to go through all of the printer and list the details. Each Service Manual for a printer has a special section listing the "Cleaning Periods" for that model printer. Some models are the same and some are very different. The key is that each Canon printer has a built in counter which keeps track of the amount of hours past since the last print cycle. Most of the printer will do a cleaning cycle when you attempt to print something and it has been more than 24 hours since you last printed something.

Here is the Service Manual Cleaning info for the Canon MP730 printer. This data also shows the amount in Grams of ink

3.3 Cleaning Mode and Suction Amount
Printhead cleaning is performed effectively and efficiently depending on conditions in order to
prevent print errors caused by bubble, dust, or ink clogging.
Cleaning is performed before starting to print except at the following timing:
Dot count suction : Performed after paper ejection
Manual cleaning/refreshing : Performed user operation
Unit delivery : Performed when scanner unit is closed
Suction
Condition Details amount
BK/CL(g)
Printhead cleaaning User operation. 0.14/0.36
Printhead refreshing User operation. 1.58/0.72
Timer suction If 24 to 336 hours have elapsed since previous suction (BK). 0.14/0.36
If 120 to 336 hours have elapsed since previous suction (CL).
Long timer suction 1 If 336 hours or more have elapsed since previous suction. 0.45/0.72
Long timer suction 2 If 1080 hours or more have elapsed since previous suction. 0.78/0.72
Long timer suction 3 If 2160 hours or more have elapsed since previous suction. 1.58/0.72
Long timer suction 4 If 4320 hours or more have elapsed since previous suction. 1.58/0.72
Dot count suction When prescribed dot count since the 0.14/0.36
last suctionis reached.
When replacing printhead When printhead is removed/installed. 0.45/1.08
When replacing ink tank Ink sensor detects that ink is present ink tank 1.58/0.72
-> That is the state changed from no ink in the ink tank.
At delivery or during first Suction when head is first installed after factory shipment. 0.45/1.08
head position adjustment
Uncapped when Soft ON When capping was not performed properly during 0.30/0.72
last power off.

I don't think it is necessary to post a list of every printer since the point is, if you print something everyday you will keep you printhead
in better condition and it will last much longer.

 

[leo8088]

Trigger37, I agree with you that not all Canon printers are the same. They can be programmed very differently. I did test it on my ip4300 yesterday before I posted my message. I turned on my ip4300 at the same time I sent a print job. I watched the printer powering up and immediately printed the job without a cleaning cycle. But the printer probably last printed less than 24 hour ago. I am not sure if 24 hours is the boundary time period. My impression is that my ip4300 rarely ever run a cleaning cycle by itself upon powering up. I do use the printer almost everyday. I will watch it over a weekend and see if it will clean on Monday.

My point is there is no need to keep the printer on all day unless you expect to use it frequently during the day. The printer will not run a cleaning cycle and waste a lot of ink each time it is power cycled during the day. But if the printer is only used once a week there is no point to keep it powered all week long either even if it will do a cleaning cycle upon powering up. I do leave my printer on once it is powered up for the day until I shut down my computer for the day. Some people leave their computer on 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I don't do that and I turn off my printer when I shut down my computer.

Thanks for posting the content of the service manual. That's an eye opener. It's great that Canon provides such detailed service manual.