Best way to create ICC profiles for new or unknown paper ?

[mavtop]

Hi all,

i know it seems a stupid question, but i got a stock of A3 and A3+ (600 sheets for 70 euros) of photographic paper, Olmec, Canson, HP, Epson, some Matte, Cotton, Canvas without name, and so on.

My printer is an Epson XP 15.000 and for all the paper i could download a profile i did it, but not for almost all.

For the Epson paper i will use the Epson ICC profiles surely, but for example Olmec (it is. a premium glossy paper) i could try to use the Epson Premium Glossy but maybe i can create a better profile. I know how to do that, i created 2 profiles for two photo papers i got a lot of years ago with success (890 patches with an i1pro), but the question is,

1) is better to profile with a single profile with 890 or more or the 480 patches (i downloaded from here) choosing the correct media type (for Olmec i would use Epson Premium Glossy) ? (this is that i used up to now for profiling paper)

or

2) is better to profile using a preconditional ICC profile (for Olmec always Epson Premium Glossy) using a second step with 890 or more or the 480 patches ?

Did someone some tests in this way ?

Results ? or links to the post ?

For the Cotton or Canvas paper (nothing is written on) which media type would i use for profiling it ?

Thanks in advance
mavtop

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm not really clear about your questions and 'quality' pf profiles- what hardware/software are you currently using to create profiles ?

I wouldn't go too high with the patch count - something like 480 patches should give you quite good profiles already as long as you are not printing commercially and you have agreed to some print color quality control . Be aware that the rendering intents do quite some color shifts already

The paper selection in the driver defines - amongst other parameters - the ink limit the paper can take, so other papers could take more - or less , that's something you can test - specifically with your non-standard papers like Cotton, Canvas or else . Create profiles for a given paper with different paper type settings, and select that profile with the widest gamut and darkest black. It would be o.k. to use just 100 patches for such preselection run before you create the final profile.

 

[mavtop]

I use Argylcms and the i1pro to make profiles.

My question is

- Using a precondition ICC with ArgyllCms (using for example the ICC for the Epson Premium Glossy Paper if the paper is a glossy paper) and generating a new set of patches based on that ICC

will give better results then

- Generating a single sheet of patches (480 or more) using like media type Epson Premium Glossy Paper (for a Glossy papaer).

I know that media type tell the printer how much ink to use and others hardware parameters to set only.

Another question how do i find the right side of the paper to print on ?

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Another question how do i find the right side of the paper to print on ?

Just print a small image on both sides and check how it looks - whether the ink dries up etc

I'm not familiar with ArgyllCMS and cannot answer your questions in this respect; you may check for an ArgyllCMS forum since your question is more general.

 

[nertog]

I use Argylcms and the i1pro to make profiles.

My question is

- Using a precondition ICC with ArgyllCms (using for example the ICC for the Epson Premium Glossy Paper if the paper is a glossy paper) and generating a new set of patches based on that ICC

will give better results then

- Generating a single sheet of patches (480 or more) using like media type Epson Premium Glossy Paper (for a Glossy papaer).

I know that media type tell the printer how much ink to use and others hardware parameters to set only.

Another question how do i find the right side of the paper to print on ?

This might help you to get an idea on how many patches you should aim for: https://rawtherapee.com/mirror/dcamprof/argyll-print.html

 

[mavtop]

Just print a small image on both sides and check how it looks - whether the ink dries up etc

I'm not familiar with ArgyllCMS and cannot answer your questions in this respect; you may check for an ArgyllCMS forum since your question is more general.

Thanks i used the trick to wet two fingers and then keep tight the paper on an angle with them, wait 2 seconds and then try to open the fingers, only one of them will keep the paper from going to the floor, that will be the right side where to print on

 

[mavtop]

This might help you to get an idea on how many patches you should aim for: https://rawtherapee.com/mirror/dcamprof/argyll-print.html

thanks i had read that article, but my question was more general, is it better use a conditional Epson profile, to create a new set of patches or is it better use a set of patches from zero ?

Another question i have a Ferrania Optijet Matte High Resolution Paper 120gsm and I created a profile for it using Epson Matte Paper about 6 months ago.

I did an error trying to print a test images using my created profile but choose Epson Premium Glossy Paper like media type (instead of Epson Matte used to profile it) and i discovered that i got a test images with lot of punch in colors and blacks (they were both very strong), so i did read again the paper characteristics and it reports "Vivid and sharp colors with a finish matt" and also "Bright White".

So i printed again the target patches (i used the first time to profile it) but this time i used Epson Premium Glossy Paper like media type (no Color Management obviously for profiling a paper) and i got the A4 target patches sheet.
I left it to dry for about 40 minutes and then i put the two target sheet close and i discovered that the new one had richer colors and blacks, the first one was kept on the paper box (so in the dark and i suppose it lose almost nothing because not directly exposed to light, uv, ozone and in general air).

So my question is, is it possibile that a Matte paper is instead a Premium Glossy, or Glossy or SemiGloss paper ?

Anyway in the next weekend i will try to read the new patches and try to compare the two profiles.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

' I left it to dry for about 40 minutes and then i put the two target sheet close and i discovered that the new one had richer colors and blacks, the first one was kept on the paper box (so in the dark and i suppose it lose almost nothing because not directly exposed to light, uv, ozone and in general air).'

The colors of patch sheets are drifting for quite a while , let it rather dry overnight or for a day since you are trying to get a pretty accurate profile

https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/color-shift-of-profile-patch-sheets.14996/post-132341

 

[nertog]

thanks i had read that article, but my question was more general, is it better use a conditional Epson profile, to create a new set of patches or is it better use a set of patches from zero ?

Sorry, I never measured the actual differences. In practice, a proper printer - ink - paper combination is much more important. If a printer is not properly linearized for a set of inks + paper, you'll get nearly incorrectable color errors.

So my question is, is it possibile that a Matte paper is instead a Premium Glossy, or Glossy or SemiGloss paper ?

With non-Epson papers (or papers not present in the printer driver), you'll need to experiment. It can very well be that the settings for Epson Premium glossy give better results with that specific matte paper.

 

[mavtop]

' I left it to dry for about 40 minutes and then i put the two target sheet close and i discovered that the new one had richer colors and blacks, the first one was kept on the paper box (so in the dark and i suppose it lose almost nothing because not directly exposed to light, uv, ozone and in general air).'

The colors of patch sheets are drifting for quite a while , let it rather dry overnight or for a day since you are trying to get a pretty accurate profile

https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/color-shift-of-profile-patch-sheets.14996/post-132341

Yes, usually i leave it dry for 24 hours, then read the sheet of patches to make the profile