B&W on Canon Printers

[nche11]

I actually do not think you will benefit by using the Pro9000. Similar to Epson's K3 ( K3 being 3 types of Black (K)) that is all that is really needed, The multiple colors in the Pro9000 is primarily to extend gamut. The "crossover" becomes the problem... just like speaker systems, too many drivers ends up complicatiing crossovers and it could become a mess.

Mike

Would you mind to explain? What do you mean crossover becomes the problem? What about 3 types of black in one Epson printer? Do you mean that will be a mess too? It will be greatly appreciated if you could cite an article or some reference on this subject.

There are very high end speakers with 5 way crossovers. They are difficult to build but they sound awesome believe me.

 

[nche11]

No explanation?

Canon had 6 color printers as early as in 2002. The printer added PC and PM for more accuracy of light colors. You can call that expansion of gamut. But it was not. The color dyes in the PC and PM ink were the same in C and M. There is no way the gamut could be increased if the dyes are the same.

Adding red and green on Pro9000 is a different story. These two new cartridges are specifically for printing ultra vibrant red and green colors only. But in real life pictures there are very few such ultra vibrant red and green in them. The red and green ink may not be used to print these photos at all.

There is an increase of gamut because of the red and green ink added to the Pro9000. But if they are rarely used how they would cause a crossover mess? The PC and PM are for more accuracy of light colors. It is difficult to print light colors accurately with C and M (not a problem for Y) with tiny droplets and little coverage. That's why PC and PM were added in the first place. There is no gain in gamut but more accuracy for reproducing light colors. How will these cause crossover problem?

So if adding PC, PM, R, G to the basic CMYK causes a crossover mess then Epson K3 being 3 type of blacks would be a big mess too? This is contradicting to the common sense. Why did manufacturers produce 8 or 10 cartridge printers in the first place?

 

[martin0reg]

@nche
You are right, PM and CM is for better and less "dotty" light areas, G and R is for wider gamut.
But I think a pro9000 with 8 (!) grey inks would be a b&w overkill, and who would turn this model to b&w only?

Somewhere in this thread is a simple adaption of miklings C-M-Y-K gray inks to C-PC-M-PM-Y-K , for older canon models like S9000 A3.
See post #40

But even the adaption to only three channels C-M-Y (without photoblack K, like the ix4000 A3 model) seems to be too difficult..

 

[The Hat]

nche11 It is difficult to print light colors accurately with C and M

Canon printers have always being able to print light magenta and cyan without the need for the photo magenta and cyan cartridges.
But when they improved the quality and speed the dpi went up also, so Canon introduced these light colours for extra sharpness.

The red and green are PMS spot colours only and are not part of the cymk colour gamut
again their introduction were meant to increase quality and sharpness even further.

Cameras take a very good colour photograph and printers print good photos.
The colour spectrum available to printers is only a fraction of whats available to a camera
and cymk just cant cut it, but is now being helped with another eight extra colours on some Canon printers.

Someone once said that Digital could never be as good as the great Kodachrome and SLR cameras, boy were they wrong.
Me I think that black & white photographs are the Holy Grail and colour just cant get near them,
maybe with miklings help and perseverance the inkjet just might produce that the Holy Grail.

So guys give it a bit more time and the poor little inkjet printer just might catch up.
Happy printing..

 

[nche11]

If you have done real black and white printing in a darkroom the old way and tried to print the same photos with inkjet printer you will know why professionals consider all inkjet black and white prints are only mediocre. For new generation people who never shoot with films and never print real black and white photos it is easy to be carried away by how convenience it is to print with inkjet printers.

Inkjet prints are reflected images. No reflecting medium, especially paper, can have a wider gamut than any medium that emits or transmits light of images. A computer monitor is one that emits light and transparency film slide is one that transmits light of images. They both have a much wider gamut than inkjet prints. You bet, modern digital cameras capture excellent color images although most of the colors are created by interpolation algorithms. But if you are wrong about kodakchrome. Try to shoot Kodakchrome with a quality medium format film camera you will see why it is wrong.

I am not saying you won't get good looking inkjet black and white prints. But the quality will be mostly mediocre. There are high end black and white printers now but expensive for both the printer and the ink. I would print inkjet black and white only for proofing. For real production the silver halide prints are still the crown jewels. There is a trend though that some people are trying to create high quality black and white inkjet print with high end Epson printers. Considering the high cost I think the only advantage is the convenience. They don't need to get their hands wet. There are reasons the old way of black and white printing is still with us today 50 years after it started.

The OP is selling a black and white ink set to use in Canon CMYK printers. Not cheap considering how it is home brewed. There is a big risk of clogging in my opinion. I think Leo's suggestion is way cheaper and safer. It is logical and really cheap for the purpose of getting proof prints.

 

[The Hat]

nche11 I taught thats what I said all right.

 

[martin0reg]

...
The OP is selling a black and white ink set to use in Canon CMYK printers. Not cheap considering how it is home brewed. There is a big risk of clogging in my opinion. I think Leo's suggestion is way cheaper and safer. It is logical and really cheap for the purpose of getting proof prints.

Printing with text black is definitely more "dotty" than printing with all colors - at least under a loupe.
So you are right it is good for "proof prints" and if the prints are large enough to have a viewing distance it may be good for "real prints".

The main things for B&W printing to me is
- neutrality (no color shift)
- good gradation / tonal values
- deep blacks
- as few "dottiness" as possible / good resolution / sharpness
- durability

Carbon ink sets fullfill all conditions - but it is far more expensive.

Miklings ink set fullfill all but durability of pigment ink and deepest blacks n matte paper.

Printing with "black only" mode (with normal A4 color printers from canon or epson) causes more dottiness if you are looking close and perhaps less tonal values. Epson r285 / P50 might be better here because it is possible to set the printer to higher resolution / slower printing and remaining in "black only" mode...

edit: leo refills the canon textblack cartridge with photo black, so it might be less grainy than using normal text/igment black. So I think you should get the quality of epson "black only" (epson r285/p50 has no text/pigment black like canon, only "photo black"). I have used this mode with R285 and I can say it is good - but it is indeed more grainy than using all colors (if you are looking nearer than ca. 50cm)

And regarding dark room printing: The quality of a good fine art ink jet print - in color or b&w - is good enough for galleries and museums ... the most art photograpers are changing to ink jet print.

 

[nche11]

Martin, look at post #70 and #71 by Leo8080. He used his BCI-3ebk using a dye based black photo ink to print black and white. This makes a lot of sense to me. Photo black ink has a much wider tonal range than pigment black ink. If the ink OP is selling is produced by a photo black ink by diluting it into 4 concentration levels based on the CMYK density perceived as black and white that actual tonal range is not increased. There is no benefit in increasing tonal range.

On the other hand because the op's black and white ink set is produced (I won't say it was formulated) primarily with a focus on the corresponding density of each gray ink in place of CMYK (K is probably not diluted) but not on other properties that are equally important for the ink to work. I would be concerned about the safety of my print head.

Black & white inkjet printing is convenient. This is the main reason a lot of people are doing it and doing everything to improve it. If there are buyers the galleries will sell it and there will be people producing it for sell. It is a trend of the digital age. Silver Halide black and white prints still beat inkjet in all 6 categories you listed if you print with a cheap Canon 5-cartridge printer. It is debatable if high end black and white inkjet platforms match the old technology.

 

[mikling]

nche11 you are forming an opinion based on an assumption. I can tell you honestly that your assumption of my just diluting K is wrong.

When a question as to whether one can get a PC and PM version. Just notice that I did not recommend using water to dilute. #40 I recommended using Y as the dilutant. The reason I did that is the basis of your concern. That all physical properties would remain the same regardless of the density of the color. This is easily accomplished by only using the other inks to dilute.

A lot of time was taken to select my K to tonally match the grays. It was a long search. In the end I found a K that matches the tonal characteristics of the other gray inks.

I will set the record straight. I do not just dilute K.

Is it perfectly linear? No. I don't think the professional putting out B&W for sale will be using this inkset.

Expensive? Here you are getting a niche B&W product at under $1 a refill. Surely you jest.

 

[The Hat]

nche11 Silver Halide black and white prints still beat inkjet in all 6 categories you listed if you print with a cheap Canon 5-cartridge printer. It is debatable if high end black and white inkjet platforms match the old technology.

The Hat Someone once said that Digital could never be as good as the great Kodachrome and SLR cameras, boy were they wrong.
Me I think that black & white photographs are the Holy Grail and colour just cant get near them,
maybe with miklings help and perseverance the inkjet just might produce that the Holy Grail.

So guys give it a bit more time and the poor little inkjet printer just might catch up.

To get a perfect grey colour is all most impossible; its properly the most difficult colour of them all when it hits paper.
Most people assume that grey is just black with white mixed in together to get a grey colour,
It would be like crossing two rabbits and expecting to get an Elephant.

Grey can be made from five colours starting with one of them as a base colour, after that its a matter of trial and error
to achieve that desired colour you wanted before your own hair turns grey its self..
To make a set of grey inks, easy it is not, achievable? ? Yes with a hell of a lot of time and patience, I couldnt do it..