An interesting question for the R3000

mikling

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
1,472
Points
313
Location
Toronto, Canada
Someone asked me this question and I think it deserves to be discussed.


"I would like to use 2 different inksets in the R3000: pigments when I want to print archival work on fine art papers and a dye inkset when I want to print exhibition prints on glossy papers.

Do you think I will create problem when switching between 2 inksets? I've been worrying about clogs or other ink incompaibilities as different inks will meet inside the ink delivery tubes and printhead.

I would appreciate an expert opinion on this before ruining my brand new R3000."


Before we start, let clarify that I do not consider myself an expert. I think things out logically and sometimes I make mistakes. I am human.


Well the first thing to do is to test the mixing of the inks in a dish to see if it mixes well. If it does, then you are clear to go.

the second thing to consider is that when going from pigment to dye, your clearing of the pigment is more critical. Left over pigment on glossy paper with dye ink will show itself readily. The reverse of going from dye to pigment is not as critical and some left over dye will not likely be easily detected.

Now one of the things to understand on the R3000 is that since the ink tanks are stationary, there are ink lines that lead to the printhead. Each time you perform a switch you will need to flush these lines out and this will consume a LOT of ink and use up your waste ink pad in a hurry. You can attach a waste ink tank like what Pharmacist intends to do. However, ensure that you have software to reset the counter. Just putting on a waste ink tank will not automatically reset the counter as so many mistakenly think. So until, such software is obtainable, I would caution you of your idea.

The other thing to consider is that the benefits of using an R3000 with dye inks might actually be limited. Only testing can show this out. For the dye prints, why not get an inexpensive Pro9000 to be had these days or an SP1400. You'd be better off than flushing the heck out of your R3000. At least I would not want to do that.

Of course if there are space restrictions then.. that ensues other considerations.


Others might see things differently.
 

websnail

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
3,666
Reaction score
1,349
Points
337
Location
South Yorks, UK
Printer Model
Epson, Canon, HP... A "few"
mikling said:
The other thing to consider is that the benefits of using an R3000 with dye inks might actually be limited. Only testing can show this out. For the dye prints, why not get an inexpensive Pro9000 to be had these days or an SP1400. You'd be better off than flushing the heck out of your R3000. At least I would not want to do that.

Of course if there are space restrictions then.. that ensues other considerations.


Others might see things differently.
To be honest I wouldn't disagree with your assessment at all... Get an Photo 1400 and use that for dye and save the R3000 for pigment inks... Anything else would IMHO just be playing Russian roulette.

Even putting aside the technical challenges, the sheer waste in ink to flush the system, along with the associated cost, would be prohibitive and is going to force the service required issue much quicker than normal... Not ideal.
 

nertog

Print Addict
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
156
Reaction score
82
Points
161
Location
Regensburg, Germany
Printer Model
Epson R3000 - PX720 - P50
Well, the compatibility of inks is my biggest worry. Pigments when dilluted can drop out of suspension I think and a bunch of pigment particles together is the start of a nice clog. I'm not a chemist, so I can be wrong in this of course.

The waste ink is not so much of a problem per se as there are a few sellers on ebay claiming to have reset tools for the R3000 available.

Any idea how much ink would be wasted when switching between 2 inksets and flushing the system?
 

mikling

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
1,472
Points
313
Location
Toronto, Canada
Flushing the dye to pigment can only be tested by trial for the very reason you pose. It could take a while to get it all out if it does not move out completely in a solid column in a FIFO fashion. I would estimate that it will take more than the switch from matte to photo because with that switch the lines are already loaded up to the diversion valve.
 

pharmacist

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
2,646
Reaction score
1,411
Points
313
Location
Ghent, Belgium
Printer Model
2x SC-900, WF-7840, TS705
Hi Michael,

Maybe there is another way to solve your problem. Use intermediate flushing cartridges to flush the ink lines/print head with a mixture of water/isopropanol/glycerin and a few drops of ammonia before switching from one ink to another. This way the chances of clogging will be drastically reduced as the ink lines are cleaned with a intermedia solution which should be compatible with both types of ink.

Nertog and I are both interested in a dye ink for glossy prints and all the available dye ink sellers only have the standard magenta/light magenta ink for this K3 vivid printer. Just have a look at ebay and other website. NONE of them sells dye vivid magenta or vivid light magenta ink.
 

mikling

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
1,472
Points
313
Location
Toronto, Canada
When I tried dye inks on the 2400, it certainly was not plug and play to get decent results. I was far better off just printing with the Pro9000. The Pro9000 can resolve shadows nearly as well as pigment printers can. I could not get the 2400 with dye to match the output of the 9000. The R3000 might be different but the problem as I saw is the deposition rates as dictated by the built in RIP and drivers optimized for pigment. I had to play with the density control quite a bit to get decent results. I am certain a custom RIP would have fixed that though.

But go ahead and have some fun experimenting.
 

nertog

Print Addict
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
156
Reaction score
82
Points
161
Location
Regensburg, Germany
Printer Model
Epson R3000 - PX720 - P50
I'm a bit lost with the ink(s) to choose for this printer to be honest :(

I love the appearance of dye inks: superb colours, deep blacks, no gloss differential, no bronzing, no scratches in the ink... Imkowl's archival series seemed very nice but until now I haven't been able to find any data on fade resistance but as it's a mix between pigments and dyes I can take an educated guess. 2 inkset can give me the best of both worlds, but switching back and forth would be dangerous and wasteful...

A second A3+ printer is out of the question so I don't have too many options here....maybe I should settle with one nice pigment inkset. HELP! :)++

@pharmacist: it's not necessary to have "vivid" magenta inks in a dye inkset as dyes are already very saturated to start with. The real problem seems to be the grey inks...nobody is offering decent LK and LLK dyes. I will have to dillute them on my own using a clear base liquid. Finding the correct viscosity and surface tension is quite important here I think.

@Mikling: I don't expect plug and play. Although a RIP is not possible with the R3000, I do have all the necessary profiling equipment. Part of the fun is experimenting with all this...as long as I don't ruin the printer of course.
 

pharmacist

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
2,646
Reaction score
1,411
Points
313
Location
Ghent, Belgium
Printer Model
2x SC-900, WF-7840, TS705
Hi Nertog,

I think inkexpress (a british company) sells R2400 dye ink and they seem to be pretty good in gamut, and includes the LK and LLK inks. I was thinking whether or not mikling's point about sticking to pigment ink for this fantastic printer is the way to go.

Did you actually read the inkowl's claim well about the ink. I cannot make up the ink is partially pigment based. I can only read dye and as such formulated to withstand fading for a very long time. So I think it is still dye, not pigment.
 

nertog

Print Addict
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
156
Reaction score
82
Points
161
Location
Regensburg, Germany
Printer Model
Epson R3000 - PX720 - P50
pharmacist said:
Hi Nertog,

I think inkexpress (a british company) sells R2400 dye ink and they seem to be pretty good in gamut, and includes the LK and LLK inks.
Can you point me to the correct place? I can't seem to find it. I do see their pigment inks though. Inkowl does mention the ink composition on their website under "what ink to choose". Anyway, I contacted the (very friendly) people at Inkowl and we discussed my needs. I explained them I would need some data to backup the longevity claims but they couldn't provide any. I do believe that any product containing dyes is sensitive to gas fading..which means this ink cannot serve as my only inkset.
 

pharmacist

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
2,646
Reaction score
1,411
Points
313
Location
Ghent, Belgium
Printer Model
2x SC-900, WF-7840, TS705
Top