[split] Printing to your hearts content

[websnail]

Lots of great info here and some folks who are REALLY serious about their ink! So I had the usual questions about how I can get the best quality Non-OEM ink/cartridge in order to print to my hearts' content and not go broke. To be honest, the idea of doing refills doesn't sit real well with me, but for some reason, I just don't feel too confident about the ink QA in the premade cartridges. I guess I want to have a bottle of ink sitting here and know that when I refill that cartridge, it's going to be the same ink I used last time so I won't have to worry about reprofiling it, etc. So I just ordered some HobbiColor off ebay based primarily on some posts from other satisfied users. I'll be sure to post back once I get it going.

Given that this sort of thing is more or less what I feel about the joys of CIS I thought I'd quote it and put the reply here.. I didn't want to spoil a useful thread on culled references and get things confused.

But, in a nutshell, if you are printing a LOT and don't want the hassle of refilling your carts all the time then a CIS based system really would make a massive difference and because it's really just a system that keeps itself topped up as you print it's a lot like refilling without the need to stop, refill and prime everything.

If you're after recommendations on that side of things or ways to reduce the guesswork then I've my own dedicated resources taking shape on http://www.continuousink.info/

Just a thought

 

[OraDBA]

Thx for the reply and your link. I considered a CIS, but I didn't see many available for the Canon i9900 and a CIS looks like a relatively large front-end investment. Perhaps this is the first step in that direction, but we'll see. I always feel like the red-headed stepchild with things like this: I shoot Olympus instead of Nikon/Canon and I use a Canon printer instead of an Epson. When am I gonna learn??? Never! =8^)

Cheers,
Dylan

 

[Nifty]

Well Dylan, if you ask me you are on the right track with Canon.

Now, websnail don't shoot me, but....

While I haven't had any experience with a CIS system it seems like it is a lot of work unless one is printing TONS of pictures / documents. The Canon cartridges are just so easy to refill that I find it hard to imagine a CIS being worth it in 90% of the cases. Maybe it is because I have nightmares of plugged or leaking CIS systems, but even when I was printing what I thought was a lot I still didn't think I needed a CIS.

So, here's a question for the group... at what point do YOU think it is worth the time, energy, and cost to go the way of the CIS? The best way to do this (I believe) is in terms of refills per week or month. For example, when I was printing a lot I was refilling cartridges about 2-4 times a month. Would you say this is CIS worthy?

What about the master refillers like Grandad who have a ton of cartridges they refill at once so there is always a set ready to go.

Some interesting questions to think about. Of course I may be way off base... like I was with my critique of multipurpose machines... and then I bought one!

 

[BlasterQ]

A CIS system is really an attractive thing for those who really enjoy printing.
However, like rob, I print only personal stuff, and since I am not a full time photographer who prints lots and lots of pictures, I cannot justify a CIS system.
For me, you need only a CIS system if you print loads and loads of pictures and documents, like if you are in a printing business of some sort.
I'm just afraid that if I have a CIS system and my printing load is not that much, the inks in the bottle might just thicken and clog the printer due to lack of use.
My printing load allows me to refill at most, once a month. So I really don't need a CIS.

 

[websnail]

Well Dylan, if you ask me you are on the right track with Canon.

Now, websnail don't shoot me, but....

While I haven't had any experience with a CIS system it seems like it is a lot of work unless one is printing TONS of pictures / documents. The Canon cartridges are just so easy to refill that I find it hard to imagine a CIS being worth it in 90% of the cases. Maybe it is because I have nightmares of plugged or leaking CIS systems, but even when I was printing what I thought was a lot I still didn't think I needed a CIS.

Heh... well as it goes *BANG!* Nah... just kidding... I actually agree with you 110%... there is definitely no need to go to a CIS kit unless you are printing a LOT of stuff..

So, here's a question for the group... at what point do YOU think it is worth the time, energy, and cost to go the way of the CIS? The best way to do this (I believe) is in terms of refills per week or month. For example, when I was printing a lot I was refilling cartridges about 2-4 times a month. Would you say this is CIS worthy?

In all honesty, I think the line is somewhat flexible based on a few things.

First off, I'd just like to note that I wouldn't touch or recommend a CIS kit that was a piece of junk such as many of the Chinese clone units. I've seen the support levels (read: "What support?!") for a number of them and frankly the quality, leaking, cr*p inks, etc... all p*ss me off no end. That's why I started my own dedicated CIS forum..

The thing with CIS kits, like refill kits, is that there's a level of skill and experience that you need to attain before you can feel confident with them and let's be honest.. if you screw up a refill cartridge your only expense is the cartridge and maybe some ink.. but if you mess it up with a CIS then you're talking about a considerable amount more expense and heartache before you get it working.

I know this from previous experience and having the benefit of 3 kits, 3 printers and a lot of ink to play with. I messed up the first, worked out what I was doing wrong... Did much better on the second... learned again and aced the third kit... I then had to go back and re-do the other 2 kits, making a lot of mess in the process but it was possible..

For most people, that sort of time and effort is either beyond them or just too frustrating so it really isn't something I'd recommend for just anyone. But to a certain extent refilling is just as technically challenging (see Grandad's posting on the flushing system) and has its own messes to cope with... So to paraphrase, refilling and CIS's both require technical skills, a willingness to learn and patience.


So, bottom line, the point where I'd see CISs's being worthwhile is either:
a) when the costs associated with refilling tasks outweigh the costs of installing a CIS kit.
... AND/OR...
b) the costs of having to stop and refill/change carts becomes an issue.


I suspect that people who do their own refilling and printing, don't see any costs when it comes to refilling because it's sort of part of the routine, but if you're wanting a low tech answer to something for a friend or a client who is printing a LOT and doesn't want the mess, or to be calling you out all the time, then a CIS makes a lot more sense.

Another thing I've noticed is that, when you tell someone they can print as much as they want, they tend to take a little while to get used to the concept before going slightly wappy and before you know it they've started printing past their paper budget


Either way, I do think it's a pretty board margin... I'd probably come down to this sort of equation..

Refilling when:
- it's for your own printing
- low to medium printing volume
- you can handle the refills yourself and have a routine down (or the time to develop one)

CIS when:
- printing volume is high and needs to be uninterrupted
- the end user is not technically adept and just "wants it to work"
- someone with technical experience can install the CIS and not needed to be on site all the time (could be yourself of course).


That's just my take on it but then I'm basing that more a client vs' self sort of setup... I do know that it's made a HUGE difference to my partner who is testing out two Epson Rx00 units with CIS installed at school. I've done all the installation and maintenance (which has only been to reset the waste ink counter so far) and she's been printing out all her resources, worksheets and the like on a daily basis... usually 100+ prints a day. It's got to the point where the kids are behaving so she'll print out their coursework for presentations and the like because they know it works better than the normal on-site setup.

Were I to provide her with refilled carts I couldn't promise that it would work as well because I'd need to provide air tight seals and the like with a stock of spare carts...

That's my take on it anyways...

 

[Nifty]

Very good points (as usual) websnail.

A quick follow up question: What has been your experience (personally and heard first hand from others) regarding the reliability of a CIS once everything is setup correctly. Other than waste tank errors, etc. how is the reliability of the CIS system and what is needed to keep it going? Just pouring more ink into the bottles?

 

[websnail]

What has been your experience (personally and heard first hand from others) regarding the reliability of a CIS once everything is setup correctly. Other than waste tank errors, etc. how is the reliability of the CIS system and what is needed to keep it going? Just pouring more ink into the bottles?

Good point... and one that I'm trying to minimise the problems with.

The potential problems as I've experienced or had explained to me are as follow:

1. Poor priming and/or installation of the CIS in the first place.
If you don't prime the carts or buffer properly you tend to get a potential air lock or more foaming build up in the cartridge. I've had this happen with MIS carts and with the InkRepublic kits I have. This is one of the reasons I strongly suggest the pre-primed MIS kits for complete beginners.

(Note: it's still vital that you retain a small quantity of air in the top of the cartridge to stop a free flow... Losing all the air results in a huge mess!)


2. Letting the ink levels run down, tubes disconnecting or coming out of the ink reservoir, etc...
...so that air is pulled into the carts instead of ink... This is a bit of an obvious one but I've done it recently and had to reprime the cartridge to get it working again. If I hadn't noticed the tube had come out, the potential damage to the head would have been pretty high. More so in a Canon I'd have thought.


3. Ink foaming
This is something that's supposed to be in the domain of sponge carts but I've found the same sort of thing happening with the Ink Republic kits (see 4.). Basically if ink foam builds up over the exit port then ink can't get into the print head and you get banding. The only way to clear it is to use a bottom purge adaptor and pull the foamy ink through into a syringe until you've purged most of the foam. You can reuse the ink though (so long as you cleaned the syringe first of course) so there's little waste. Just a bit of mess if you're a n00b

(Note: This is considered normal procedure for 6 months of use, on sponged carts, and is simple enough to get get to grips with if you have the equipment)


4. Poor seal around the post that pokes into or seals the cartridge exit port
This is more something that affects Ink Republic kits or Canon CIS kits. Ink Republic buffers don't always form a tight seal over the post in Epson print heads and this can introduce air bubbles into the buffer. If this happens you get the same effect as foaming. The best way to avoid this is to ensure that the buffers are in the correct placement and held in the proper vertical alignment. Also it's important that the tubing doesn't cause the buffers to flex about and thus cause gaps for air to leak in. The only way I've managed to sort this is by clamping the tubes somehow, so that only the tube moves, not the buffers.

As many of you are probably aware, Canon cartridges have a nasty habit of riding up as the retaining clip at the front doesn't seem to hold itself in very well. For a normal cartridge this generally doesn't cause too many problems but for a CIS kit it means that air rather than ink gets drawn into the cartridge so the cartridge eventually requires repriming. The easiest way to avoid this is to put blue tak, silly putty or some kind of wedge between the cartridges clip and the cartridge so that the clip stays locked against the unit and stops it riding up.


5. Incorrect vertical alignment or placement of the reservoirs relative to the print head
Gravity is alive and well and obviously affects how well the ink flows to the cartridges/buffers. If you have it too low, the syphon effect may be too weak (air is pulled in instead of ink).. If you have the reservoirs too high, you can cause a uncontrolled flow and flood your printer. The general rule of thumb is to keep the reservoirs at the same relative height as the print head itself or slightly lower. I've heard of Canon Pixma printers requiring them to be lower than the printer base by about an inch and a half, but this is with a kit I've not used. Either way, careful testing is required.

Moving a CIS printer:
Needless to say the movement of the reservoirs in general also affects things. When moving a printer and reservoirs around (especially an Ink Republic fitted kit!) it's generally a good idea to crimp the tubes to stop a free flow.

6. Crimped tubes
You need to be sure to uncrimp or check for any crimping/twisting in the tubing so that flow isn't interrupted when in use.


7. Dirty reset chips
This is a no brainer... You need to be sure the chips are working and not fouled with ink.


8. Tubing pathway
This is possibly the most important bit of any CIS kit and I'm surprised that I didn't mention it sooner to be honest. With many CIS kits I've found that the clips can be placed in the wrong position, can unstick (this happens to me a LOT) and or the tubing can become caught, fouling/blocking the printhead path. This is one of the reasons I despair at Ink Republics "oh you'll figure it out" policy with respect to the tubing coming out of their buffers. Most other kits carefully plan and guide the tubing properly so that it won't catch...

Most of that relates to installation but of course something might become unglued or caught so you need to make sure that clips are VERY secure and won't come off.. I tend to use a glue gun now rather than any 3M doubled sided pads as the latter just can't handle the stresses properly.


9. Ink Quality/Compatability
I've lost track of the number of people who think that using a CIS kit means that they can now use whatever ink they want with the printer, just because the CIS manufacturer claims it's possible. It is possible to use incompatible ink with a kit and it's generally a good idea to check for independent 3rd party confirmation based on long term use, not "I just got this and it works great"... 3 or 4 months down the road you start seeing "It's started banding, clogging, etc.. posts and that's never good.

Note: I found this the hard way using MIS archival dyebase ink with my Ink Republic kit on an R300. In an MIS CIS kit it would have worked... but there was insufficient pressure in the Ink Republic kit for it to flow properly and it clogged or banded regularly. Dye base (the standard ink for an R300) worked just fine




So, in summary, you see there's a number of things you need to be aware of with CIS kits and it's one of the reasons I've started providing a maintained service that provides fully configured CIS printers.

All of the above are just examples of things to look out for but frankly if you take as much time preparing, learning and updating your experience and kit as you would with cartridge refilling I don't see a huge difference in terms of time and effort expended..

 

[Nifty]

Wow websnail.... great post!

I can see how there would be a bit of a learning curve, but I also understand what you're saying that once you have the process / procedures down that it becomes relatively easy to do.

Keep up the great work and take lots of good pictures!