Some test prints with a WF 7710 and CISS

[BlackSea]

Hey guys, first post here First of all let me just say I am glad to be part of this community, and although until now I have not really participated in the talk here through input and mainly read and learnt, this forum and community is a great knowledge base and a wonderful discussion platform.

Recently I have bought a new printer, adding to the ones which I already have. It is a WF 7710 with a CISS installed. I printed until now a couple of hundreds A3 sheets with it (about 250) doing various tests with various papers. Mostly I bought this as a digital sollution to try and make it work with offset paper. Here are some of my results which I would like to discuss with you. I use Inktec Durabrite pigments in the printer and I tested it on various offset paper, mostly double coated(on both sides) 64x90 cm which cuts in a convenient 32x45 offset paper, both glossy and semi matte. The largest gsm the device allows I found to be 300 gsm , and even that is a struggle as there is some rubbing from the feeding and transport mechanism onto the paper which kinda leaves some barely visible marks and the ink is not put down properly. I think a safe wight, for those who need thicker cardstock is 270 max.

Now I was very curious about the way in which the ink and the printer would react with this paper. From the media types found in the default Epson driver (I am using MacOS, Win driver seems to have some extra options - like Short Grain Paper, for extra thick, which I do ot have so don't know if the 300gsm would work better with that) I found that HQ plain papers and Thick work best. The profiles for various Epson specialty papers like matte, Ultra Glossy, Premium, Presentation,etc. I found that they give bad colour accuracy compared to my calibrated iMac and blotchyness in printing. That being being said, here are some samples below using 130gsm double coated fine offset paper , kinda glossy but not mirror-like glossy

From the printer menu, the settings which I used and enabled are - Unidirectional, Ink Drying time -Longest, Thick Paper-On; from the computer again Thick Paper&Envelopes-On and High Speed - Off;
from the menu - Paper Type= HQ Plain Papers; fed from both the cassete and rear tray; Quality=Highest;

With no color correction from the driver here is a sample of a print of some swatches which I created myself in Photoshop, A3, 300dpi


The sheet on the left is printed with the file in sRGB profile, and no colour correction in driver; the file on the right is printed after conversion to EuroScale Coated V2, and some lifting of the shadows +a bit of saturation. The photo is not exactly perfect but suffice to say that the file on the left has about 75-80% color accuracy compared to what is displayed, the file on the right is at about 90% colour accuracy to what is displayed . So the conversion to the profile does seem to help with colour accuracy. There gamut seems to be limited in the shadow region , so these have to be lifted. Some more samples


As you can see from these there is a certain grainyness in solid colours, especially visible in the dark regions. Here are some more photos, from samples printed, of a digital artwork and from a photo

Again the shadows exhibit such grainyness. Kinda looks like ink pooling to me, but maybe I'm wrong since I am no great expert and still learning . Now I know this ink and machine were not specifically designed to work with this paper but i am thinking of ways to improve it. When the ink I currently have in it will run out I am thinking of using some Ultrachrome ink insead. What do you guys think? Would that improve this? Or what other suggestions do you have?

Next week I will be able to put up some samples using linen texture offset paper, 220 and 270 gsm... Overall I am generally pleased with the printer, and I think right now the ink in it is the weakest link in the chain.

Also the samples above look a bit worse than in reality in those photos, as the shots are made with a phone camera... The printer can do photos and digital artwork, good just not excellent/extraordinary. But I feel it can do better, that is why I'm thinking of ways to improve

Thanks a lot for your patience to read this loooong post and if you have any suggestions, ideas, feedback I'd love to hear them.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

You did quite some testing already with your printer using it for photo/graphics printing which is not the prime intention for this type of printer but much more office like print jobs.
I did some testing some time ago with a WF-7110 which uses the same cartridges as yours so results should be comparable overall but I was running the printer with Win7/10 instead.
https://www.printerknowledge.com/th...d-for-photo-printing.10972/page-3#post-105120
Please be aware that you need to create icc profiles as soon as you really want to print colors correctly with your ink/paper combinations, the Epson profiles won't be of any use in this case.

You are on your own with testing non-inkjet type papers - you may get good results or not - you won't know beforehand.
300 gr papers are about the limit for the feeding mechanism, but it is not just the weight, but as well the stiffness of the paper and good friction for the pickup roller on the backside of the paper. so some papers with the same weight may feed better than others, and some papers are slightly bent in one direction as they were cut off a paper roll.
Yes, you can get an effect of ink pooling on the surface in case the absorption of the ink on the surface is not good/fast enough, you may reduce the overall ink saturation in such a case or use other driver settings.
And be aware of the (non)-usage of the ink in the black cartridge, the black (pigment) ink is used only with paper settings for normal/copy paper or inkjet paper, once you use photopaper the black is mixed with the CMY colors and the black ink is not used, this leads to more ink in darker areas and may create the perceived ink pools. The original Epson Durabrite ink shows quite some bronzing effect on glossy papers, and the Inktec black pigment ink as well. You are getting better, more neutral blacks with the inkjet paper setting on glossy papers, but only with a few pigment inks - those photo blacks which are offered as a substitute for the P600/800 printers.

 

[The Hat]

Hi @BlackSea and welcome with your very big post...phew.

The more you use the printer the better understanding you’ll have of what paper works and what doesn’t, most offset papers are useless for inkjet, but you seem to have found some that do work.

When you cut SRA2 sheets in half you can use higher stock weights because the smaller sheets are now cross grained, and won’t cause an issue, but if used lengthways it will, try cutting the paper width to 315 x 450, it may help reduce your feeding problems.

Because most of the offset paper is not designed for inkjets use, your colours may vary wildly, especially after 24 hours drying time, Digital paper can be more stable under normal viewing conditions.

You seem to have a good working knowledge of your colours and are comfortable with their many different settings, and are able to avoid the use of papers that bleach your prints...

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Because most of the offset paper is not designed for inkjets use, your colours may vary wildly,

The Surface of some of those papers contributes as well to the look of blotchiness, paper suppliers for inkjet type papers can offer you about any look and surface you are after , from glossy to velvet to matte, structured, metallic, canvas, Baryt etc

 

[Andreas S]

Some observations.
1) coated papers are not offset paper even if they are ysed for offset printing; These papers are "modern coated" and only some matt coated are suitable for inkjet printing. I've made a lot of prints on this kind of paper with very good results some years ago.
2) Real offset paper as Antalis printspeed is excellent for inkjet prints as they are used for letterheads. They are very close to archival matt papers and I use them for my favorite prints. And the paper is very cheap…
3) Using offset used coated paper you have to cut down the density as the ink can't pentrate into the paper
4) 300g coated offset thickness is simliar to 250g standard paper. Never mix thickness with weight. A rule for thicknes of uncoated paper is 100 g = 0,1 mm. And an inkjet or laser printer gives a f(censored) about weight, they are only limited by thickness.
5) The easiest way to find suitable paper is to have a look at the websites of a paper manufacturer as Antalis, they indicates for each paper if it is granted for inkjet printing. But even with some non granted paper you can make good prints. You can also ask your local offsetprinter to give you some sheets for testing, coated paper is the cheapest in the market and he won't say no. Don't ask for real peach skin, either he will hit you or laugh out loud as this kind of paper costs up to €16 a sheet…

edit:

 

[BlackSea]

Hey guys. Thank you all for your answers!

In order of what was said-

@Ink stained Fingers - many of the ideas you mentioned are along similar lines with what I was thinking myself. I think i will definitely try, when the ink I have right now runs out, to replace it with Ultrachrome compatible pigments (such as those for the surecolor P800/P600 or the T3200/5200), at least the black and see how it works. You suggest to reduce the ink saturation from the driver to avoid the ink pooling problems. But I have done that, and in order for the prints to not look desaturated and washed out I previously increased from Photoshop the saturation of the images. Is there a better way to do it? To reduce the ink density without the final print looking de-saturated and washed out?

@The Hat - the thickness for the 300gsm i used and felt it kinda exceeded the limits of the device is like this: a ream with 125 Sheets, Matt board Paper (coated 2 sides) is 44 mm, so a sheet is approx 0.35mm thick. I think the WF has a limit at about 0.3 mm thickness, beyond that it has problems. Here are some snaps which show impressions from the rollers of the feeding mechanism onto the 300gsm thick paper


Currently I am cutting SRA1 size in quarters to 320x450 mm. I will try to cut the extra 5mm off to 315 and see if that makes an improvement. But I am really curios, why would that make any improvements over 320mm?

@Andreas S - thank you for your suggestion. Didn't think of using regular offset paper. I will try it and see if i get better results. Again a question would be how do I cut down on ink density from the drivers without the final prints looking de-saturated or washed out?
Also , this got me really curios:

real peach skin, either he will hit you or laugh out loud as this kind of paper costs up to €16 a sheet…

. What is this? Is this a kind of paper?

again thank you all for your feedback and advice. Have a great day!

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I think you would overall get better results if you go for regular inkjet type papers by those companies like Hahnemuehle, Canson, Ilford, Tecco, Sihl, Fotospeed and many more , I'm not sure which type of paper/surface you are after. And you would have less problems with ink saturation and other surface irregularities with their special coatings
https://tecco.de/wp-content/uploads/lists/RANGE_TECCO_PHOTO_EN.pdf
https://www.fotospeed.com/Fotospeed-Inkjet-Papers/catalogue/1123/ just to show a few of those.

Ink saturation - when you run your printer with RIP software, not the regular driver, you typically have a function to set ink limits - as part of a profiling process - to find that amount of ink beyond which there is no gain of color saturation or a deeper black anymore possible. This process is called linearization. There is one good reason for it - to avoid excess ink usage without benefit - to prevent waste of ink - and money, it is used for this reason for large format printers. And this automatically eliminates ink pooling as well.
You may use the Printfab software with your printer
https://www.printfab.com/en/
offering you some of that - setting ink limits is an available option - by color and as a total for mixed colors.
But beyond all that you are hitting limits of this printer hardware which is made primarily for office type applications and not such much for graphics/photo printing and alike on special media.

 

[The Hat]

- the thickness for the 300gsm i used and felt it kinda exceeded the limits of the device is like this: a ream with 125 Sheets, Matt board Paper (coated 2 sides) is 44 mm, so a sheet is approx 0.35mm thick. I think the WF has a limit at about 0.3 mm thickness, beyond that it has problems. Here are some snaps which show impressions from the rollers of the feeding mechanism onto the 300gsm thick paper
Currently I am cutting SRA1 size in quarters to 320x450 mm. I will try to cut the extra 5mm off to 315 and see if that makes an improvement. But I am really curios, why would that make any improvements over 320mm?

Coated offset paper is thinner than uncoated but weights heaver, and if try the paper with two different grain directions you’ll notice how the printer will have difficulty with the long grain cut sheets.

My suggestion of trimming 5 mm from the edge was because I reckoned that would allow for some wriggle room, but if your machine can feed larger than 320 wide then it will be of no value to you.

Your photos show that the rollers are having some difficulty with the thickness and/or surface coating of your paper stock, so try cleaning the feed roller with some alcohol or soapy water, that should improve their grip and prevent scuffing and marking of the surface.

I have tested more than a dozen offset paper stock types and found only a handful are worthwhile because of the ink bleaching (Blotting paper effect) a good laid paper stock works extremely well and gives a similar effect as a canvas surface.

Try cutting your paper samples down to smaller and manageable sizes for test prints and then set them aside to see how good/bad the ink dries into the paper surface, ink saturation amounts can vary wildly and effect the colour badly...

Something I used in the past for small amounts of Graphic prints was to run the sheets back through the printer a second time to improve the depth of the colours and to counteract some of the ink saturation into the paper surface, subject to good registration...

if you go for regular inkjet type papers by those companies like Hahnemuehle, Canson, Ilford, Tecco, Sihl, Fotospeed and many more

@Ink stained Fingers, The reason I suspect for using offset paper is their relatively low cost, they are a fraction of the cost of what inkjet paper stockist over charge, I never bought any of the photo paper brand names you have mentioned, they were simply unaffordable to me.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

The reason I suspect for using offset paper is their relatively low cost

Yes, that's exactly the same reason I use non-genuine refill inks now and then.............o.k. - most of the time - almost ever.. But it is nevertheless interesting to know if and to which extend 3rd party material performs similar to the premium stuff and to judge and decide if that premium ink/paper is that much better that I would pay for it - I wouldn't pay 5x the price of the Sihl/Aldi paper for an Epson glossy paper, but when it comes to specialty/fine art papers there are typically not many discount alternatives . And - as always - it requires lots of testing to find the limits, the best driver settings, profiling etc as the current discussion just indicates.

 

[The Hat]

but when it comes to specialty/fine art papers there are typically not many discount alternatives

I can’t argue with your sound reasoning, because if I wanted high quality prints then I’d use only the best inks and materials too, there can never be any shortcuts to perfection.

They don’t have over charge for quality photo papers here in our little market, and the cost of purchasing in the EU is not much better with Courier charges, and then some guys think they are the only ones getting screwed in inkjet market...