A German refill problem ?

[The Hat]

I have noticed an increase in ink delivery related problems mainly with cartridges filled by the German refill method.

Now I know I am letting myself in for a whole lot of stick by just highlighting my observations
and daring to blame the BEST refill method of all.

I dont know if its down to this particular refilling method or not but somehow I dough it
because it is so widely used and loved by so many successful refillers, who dare I say actually prefer it.

The problem I am referring to is ink starvation, your printer runs out of ink in the middle of a sheet
but the cartridge still has plenty of ink in the reservoir side.

It could be that this method needs much more care and attention than its actually gets,
some guys can get careless or just not pay enough attention to it after so many successful refills.

I am not knocking the refill method in any way but am wondering why it has more earlier ink issues than any other refill method.

It could be caused by the positioning of the refill hole or the needle leaving a small gap between the sponge and the bottom on the cartridge
resulting in an air bubble trapping the remaining ink inside the reservoir?

Tapping the cartridge bottom on a hard surface can in some cases resolve the situation and get you back printing again quickly
but a fresh look into this problem might suggest that a policy of purging a cartridge after say 5 refills might be in order.

This same ink starvation problem (for other reasons) can and does occur with the top filling method
but not as frequent and maybe the same should apply to all our refilling methods regardless of which one that were using.

Its not nice when you have your refilling down to a fine art and everything is going just perfectly
and something like this pops up out of the blue.

We nearly always blame the print head first for clogging and then the ink followed by the cartridge
because the last thing we want to blame is our perfect refilling technique.

I am just trying to highlight the same problem that comes up again and again and think
maybe its time to take another look at all our refilling practices and procedures..

 

[Grandad35]

Just for the record, I use the top fill method. I experimented with the German method for a few months, but found the top fill method easier and more reliable for me.

I have experienced the same ink starvation issue with both refill methods, and it is my opinion that a common cause is that the sponge gets pushed into the grooves at the back of the sponge chamber (it doesn't have to be pushed all the way in - a slight indentation into the grooves can cause a problem). When this happens, air can't be drawn into the ink chamber when ink is pulled from the sponge (the air allows ink to flow from the ink chamber into the sponge, re-filling the grooves, stopping additional air flow, stopping additional ink flow, etc.).

With the German method, it is obvious that the sponge can be pushed into the grooves if the needle drags on the sponge as it is inserted.

With the top refill method, I usually only see this after a cart is purged - when the water pushes the sponge toward the ink chamber. This was mentioned in the original write-up and can usually be corrected by tapping the cart on its front edge. This solution also seemed to help ink starved carts re-filled by the German method, but I didn't spend enough time experimenting to say for sure.

This brings up an advantage of the top fill method - that it is possible to test for the proper operation of these grooves. On the first fill of a purged cart, it is easy to leave the refill hole open and let the cart drip until the drip rate stabilizes (usually at least 10-20 drops). You should get about 1 drop every 2 seconds. If it stops dripping or drips slowly, tap the cart on the front as described. If it won't drip properly after several attempts at tapping, don't put the cart into your printer as it won't work properly. I have seen a few instances where a thoroughly dried cart seemed to suffer an "air lock" within the sponge itself on the first refill, and where the problem seemed to cure itself after being allowed to set for a week or two with the exit covered and the refill hole closed. I also lightly blow into the vent opening after each refill to judge how much pressure is required to cause the cart to drip. After a lot of experience, it is possible to judge when too much pressure is required and the cart may not supply its ink properly.

 

[MP640]

With the German Refill Method, I had problems getting the needle into the ink chamber. Sometimes had to try several times and I think this may have damaged the sponge. I have reverted to the top fill method.

 

[rodbam]

Close to two years using the German method with the pro 9000 & no problems yet as far as I know. I did have a partially clogged PM in the head but what caused that I don't know. Multiple cleans didn't fix it so I got a new head. Now with the pro 9500 I can use the dribble method which comes naturally to an old bloke.

 

[PeterBJ]

For about a year I have been refilling BCI-3e/6, PGI-5/CLI-8 and PGI-520/CLI-521 cartridges using the German method with squeeze bottles and KMP-U pigment ink and IS dye inks from Octoinkjet UK. I think this method is very elegant and it has worked like a charm. It still does for the BCI-3e/6 and PGI-5/CLI-8 cartridges, but recently I have encountered problems using this method to refill the newer PGI-520/CLI-521 cartridges.

So I think the problem could be not with the German method itself, but with the newer cartridges being less suitable for this refill method. I have also noted that many recent threads about problems with the German method of refill involve the newer cartridges PGI-x20/CLI-x21 and PGI-x25/CLI-x26. See this post for an impressive number of refills of the older cartridges without problems: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=52774#p52774

I have had problems both with cartridges not filling up to the specified weight and with inkflow. Normally flushing and drying the cartridges have brought them back to normal working order, so they refilled to the specified weight without ink leaking from the ink outlet and vent, and inkflow was also restored.

Last week I had problems with 3 PGI-520 cartridges that were underweight after refill and inkflow was also restricted, testing it by touching the ink outlet with a piece of kitchen paper/paper towel. It was also difficult to get ink to exit from the outlet by holding the cartridge over the kitchen sink and blowing into the vent. I had to blow much harder than normal to make ink exit from the outlet.

After flushing and drying the cartridges I tested them by filling them with water using the German method and a squeeze bottle. I noticed that it took very long time for the water in the ink chambers to enter the sponges during the resting period, and the cartridges were not filled up to capacity. So I flushed them again and treated them with pharmacist's conditioning solution before drying. This made no difference.

I then protected the cartridges with storage clips and tapped them hard against the table. This brought two of the cartridges back to life. They now absorbed the water in the ink chamber and could be filled up to capacity without leaking. Blowing into the vent made the water exit in a normal way, and touching the outlet with a piece of kitchen paper/paper towel wicked out water in a normal way and a fine stream of air bubbles was seen in the ink chamber, also in a normal way. I then emptied and dried the two cartridges and filled them again with ink. They filled up to capacity and gave off ink in a normal manner when tested by blowing into the vent.

I could not get the third cartridge to work properly so I cut it open to examine it. Even topfilling it and leaving the fill hole unplugged didn't cause the water to enter the sponges.

Here is the position of the refill hole. It is seen it is slightly above the recommended centre of the >< markings. Click to enlarge:



Even if the hole is placed slightly above the recommended position, the needle slides close to the bottom causing damage to the bottom sponge and risk of separating the bottom sponge and the outlet filter. Click to enlarge:



And here is the damaged sponge. I use 2" 21g sharp needles to minimize damage, but maybe using a big sewing needle to drill a channel and then use blunt needles could be less damaging? Click to enlarge:



I think the cause of the problems was that the sponge and outlet filter had separated and/or that the bottom sponge had been pushed into the the grooves as suggested by Grandad35. So even if I like the German refill method with squeeze bottles very much, I think that for the newer and seemingly more fragile cartridges, topfilling is the way to go, and I will start topfilling these cartridges, hoping that I will have fewer problems with them in the future. Topfilling will also have the added bonus of Grandad35's drip test available. I will continue using the German refill method with squeeze bottles for the older cartridges though, as I still like this method very much.

ThrillaMozilla brought some excellent cartridge radiographs here: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7486 . In post #1 you see a cartridge with sponge and outlet filter separation before and after tapping the cartridge, and in post #10 you see an air bubble blocking the passage between the ink- and sponge chambers. I think that an air bubble was the cause of the inkflow problems I encountered here: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7744 . I think Topfilling would also minimize the risk of creating an air lock.

I think that the German method owes much of its popularity to pharmacist's excellent instructions. Maybe somebody wishing to promote topfilling could write a similar instruction with pictures for the topfill method? It is easy to find pharmacist's instructions, finding instructions for topfill takes a lot of searching.

 

[stratman]

Thanks should be given to Defcon2k who introduced the Durchstich refilling method to the forum, IIRC.

Instructions for the Top Refill method have been done by both forum members Mikling (Precision Colors) and websnail (Octoink at http://www.octoink.co.uk/kb/questions/103/SquEasyFill+Tips) and most likely many other bulk ink vendors.

 

[The Hat]

Thanks should be given to Defcon2k who introduced the Durchstich refilling method to the forum, IIRC.

Instructions for the Top Refill method have been done by both forum members Mikling (Precision Colors) and websnail (Octoink at http://www.octoink.co.uk/kb/questions/103/SquEasyFill+Tips) and most likely many other bulk ink vendors.

I did a post on the top filling method some time ago as well, that works quite well for me..
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6264

 

[stratman]

I did a post on the top filling method some time ago as well, that works quite well for me..
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6264

Add some pictures, per PeterBJ's desire, and it would be even more extra special.

 

[The Hat]

I did a post on the top filling method some time ago as well, that works quite well for me..
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6264

Add some pictures, per PeterBJ's desire, and it would be even more extra special.

You win I will update that thread with some pictures just to keep you happy ok, but were getting off the original topic just a tad.

 

[barfl2]

Some very interesting posts and observations that can be very useful to everybody. Right from the beginning when I embraced the German method I considered the needle hole position critical and designed for the BCi carts I was using at the time a paper drilling jig.

The case thickness is about 1/16" so I calculated that the hole should be 0.0625 + 0.0020 to give a small clearance above the bottom and to slide along the bottom and NOT cut into the sponge. It was centred as well which is not so critical. I was still concerned however that you are forcing a gap between sponge and output filter which could cause problems.

I have had problems recently with CLI- 521 Magenta on a Canon Pixma MP620 I tried 4 different carts and purging etc did not solve my ink flow problem but changing the ink did, so it is not always the cart which is at fault.

I thing The Hat idea of flushing every 5 refills is a sensible approach and we had a Forum member who carefully kept a full record of the date of all his refills. Perhaps a simple sticky label on the cart (if there is space) Perhaps we are guilty of overfilling again the The Hat suggested 75% but I must admit with only 9ml capacity I fill mine right up.

Top fill seems so basic and simple so why do so many like myself cannot get consistent results. I either get quick troublefree or ink seems to be coming up everywhere, particularly the outlet before I am even 50% full and inky bubbles from the fill hole. Another problem with the newer printers is one of top clearance. Those low profile plugs are pesky little devils, and I am always worried my cart is 100% airtight.

Recently when I was dealing with my Magenta problem I flushed and refilled 4 carts via German method in very rapid time without a spot of ink anywhere. There is no way I could achieve that with topfill. Nevertheless I feel that it less intrusive to the cart and I can understand why people prefer it. Or is it better for the older clear Carts where you can see everything which is going on.